Importance of Family

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Importance of Family

Postby Athena on August 4th, 2015, 8:36 pm 

Two things concern me strongly, education and family. Together these are the foundation of our nations and futures. It might help to be dependent on research, so here is a research-based explanation of why family order is important.

Divorce weakens society http://info.legalzoom.com/effects-di...ety-20105.html
Quote:
Divorce can save people from a bad marriage, but research has shown that it can also debilitate a society. Divorced adults are more likely to become impoverished while their children experience psychological and economic stress hindering their social development. According to the National Marriage Project, between 1960 and 2009, the divorce rate in the United States doubled; between 40 and 50 percent of newly married couples will either separate or divorce. With high divorce rates threatening social stability, the United Nations urges governments everywhere to adopt policies to reverse this trend.

The Familiy as Society's Nucleus
Divorce hinders society by dissolving families and weakening belief in the family as an essential social unit. To sociologists, the family does more than unite people by marriage and blood or adoption; it provides the educational, financial and emotional support its members need to thrive socially. Without this support, divorced adults and their children are mentally and physically weakened, becoming less productive social participants. More broadly, divorce leads people to question whether having a family is worthwhile. The Heritage Foundation reports that children of divorced households tend to enter high-risk marriages. Even worse, says researcher Patrick Fagan, is that these children often do not marry and start families of their own, a phenomenon that can disturb social harmony.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby CanadysPeak on August 4th, 2015, 9:28 pm 

How do you explain the phenomenon, observed by Whitten et al that women do suffer from parental divorce while men only have lower confidence, but no actual effect?

J Fam Psychol. 2008 Oct; 22(5): 789–793.

Moreover, I believe that what the United Nations advocates is an end to the economic discrimination against women as a result of divorce. Both the UN and the European Court of Human Rights recognize divorce as a basic right.

I agree with you that family deterioration occurs in divorces. Should we perhaps not raise high the bar for marriage? Perhaps require several years courtship and extensive counseling, even require that potential spouses be encouraged to not marry since we have too many people and don't need children and since divorce is a problem.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby BadgerJelly on August 4th, 2015, 11:23 pm 

Personally I think not getting divorced can cause more problems than a divorce would. Parents staying together "for the sake of the children" are not being helpful to their children and merely adhering to what they are told is the correct thing to do.

I do think it is important for children to grow up in a loving environment and have exposure to a loving relationship from adults (be it parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, uncles,aunts, etc.,).

Base statistics of divorce rates and such don't tell the whole story. One thing I have noticed from the US is its obsession with statistics. Why is this?
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby BadgerJelly on August 4th, 2015, 11:55 pm 

Marriage weakens the family. It is outdated and pointless. People just need to see beyond a piece of paper and learn to trust in human beings rather than the law.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby Positor on August 5th, 2015, 1:09 am 

BadgerJelly » August 5th, 2015, 4:23 am wrote:Personally I think not getting divorced can cause more problems than a divorce would. Parents staying together "for the sake of the children" are not being helpful to their children and merely adhering to what they are told is the correct thing to do.

I think it depends on the individual circumstances.

• How bad is the animosity between the parents? How well can they control it in front of the children? From the children's point of view, does the sense of security (and the convenience) provided by having both parents living with them outweigh any noticeable tension or occasional angry scenes between them?

• How much disruption would a divorce cause to the children's lives? How far apart would the parents be living? How much would the children (bearing in mind their age) resent being regularly passed from one divorced parent to the other, with little or no heed to the children's wishes or convenience?

• Are there extended-family members living close by, who have always been closely involved with the children and would therefore mitigate the emotional and practical effects of the parents' divorce? Are there neighbours or family friends to whom this may apply?

• How old are the children?

• What do the children want?

Also, don't assume too easily that a reconciliation is impossible. A divorce may be the best solution in some circumstances, but arguments in support of it often strike me as self-serving.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby BadgerJelly on August 5th, 2015, 1:35 am 

How bad is the animosity between the parents? How well can they control it in front of the children? From the children's point of view, does the sense of security (and the convenience) provided by having both parents living with them outweigh any noticeable tension or occasional angry scenes between them?


I am sorry children are more aware than parents give them credit for. You cannot cover up a loveless relationship only fool yourself into thinking you can.

The obsession to keep marriages going regardless is plain stupid. By all means a couple should work on a relationship but once they both decide it is beyond repair then what exactly is the reason for exposing their children to a pretend marriage?

One thing I can tell you. Marriage in asia seems to be respected more. Gender roles are much more delineated here though.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby titanium dioxide on August 5th, 2015, 5:15 am 

I think everyone hope to have a harmonious family relationship. Before we start a marriage ,we should consider it carefully. Once we got married ,I think trust and loyalty is most important. Maybe a lot of people
just exposed their children to a pretend marriage because they have no courage to face stress from others.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby CanadysPeak on August 5th, 2015, 6:22 am 

BadgerJelly » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:23 pm wrote:Personally I think not getting divorced can cause more problems than a divorce would. Parents staying together "for the sake of the children" are not being helpful to their children and merely adhering to what they are told is the correct thing to do.

I do think it is important for children to grow up in a loving environment and have exposure to a loving relationship from adults (be it parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, uncles,aunts, etc.,).

Base statistics of divorce rates and such don't tell the whole story. One thing I have noticed from the US is its obsession with statistics. Why is this?


Only 73.8 % of us are obsessive about statistics. :>)

Seriously, as a nation, we are almost complete ignorant about statistical measures, e.g., people commonly speak about "average age" in communities, but are completely at sea if then asked about the "mean" or "mode" of that data, or even the error and confidence. Couple that with a herd mentality, where people are unwilling to stand apart from their peers or colleagues on almost anything, and you have a setup where clever manipulators can then scream over the telly that "Studies show that 67 % of serial killers surveyed prefer Hillary Clinton over Martin O'Malley."

We are an illiterate nation in spite of our extraordinarily good higher education system.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby neuro on August 5th, 2015, 6:27 am 

This topic seemed to attempt a “research based approach”. So, my contribution will try to comply with such aim.
Athena » August 5th, 2015, 1:36 am wrote:Two things concern me strongly, education and family. Together these are the foundation of our nations and futures. It might help to be dependent on research, so here is a research-based explanation of why family order is important.

Divorce weakens society http://info.legalzoom.com/effects-di...ety-20105.html
Quote:
Divorce can save people from a bad marriage, but research has shown that it can also debilitate a society. Divorced adults are more likely to become impoverished while their children experience psychological and economic stress hindering their social development.

“More likely” with respect to whom?

The control population cannot be the overall population, neither can be the happily living married couples.
A study should be performed by comparing divorced people with couples who can't stand their marriage anymore but did not divorce for cultural, economical, religious reasons. Especially with respect to the “their children experience psychological and economic stress” part.

Is anybody aware of such a study?

The Familiy as Society's Nucleus
Divorce hinders society by dissolving families and weakening belief in the family as an essential social unit. To sociologists, the family does more than unite people by marriage and blood or adoption; it provides the educational, financial and emotional support its members need to thrive socially....


Scientifically speaking, this looks to me as backward reasoning.
The story is presented as if divorce were the cause of weakening and dissolution of the Family (capital to indicate the "institution", family + the belief in the family).
The alternative perspective, i.e. that divorce be the result of a sociological drift toward a weakening of the nuclear family as a founding structure of society, should also be examined.

Whether such drift ought to be fought against (which seems to be Athena's point) is another story...
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby mtbturtle on August 5th, 2015, 6:30 am 

I do not consider legalzoom a research based approach if that is indeed the intent of this thread and the legalzoom link doesn't work.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby neuro on August 5th, 2015, 6:42 am 

BadgerJelly » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:23 pm wrote:One thing I have noticed from the US is its obsession with statistics. Why is this?

I shouldn't see this as a defect.
In my opinion it indicates a positive attitude toward asking for some scientific, experimental, observational support to the claims that are made, and when you report a statistical datum it appears as such a support.

In many places (my Country is an example) anybody can stand up on TV and claim whatever they wish, and they will be regarded with the same respect and trust - or disrespect and diffidence - as a mathematician who rigorously demonstrates a theorem.

CanadysPeak » August 5th, 2015, 11:22 am wrote:
Only 73.8 % of us are obsessive about statistics. :>)
...
We are an illiterate nation in spite of our extraordinarily good higher education system.

Why do you think the US are particularly illiterate?
Statistics are a tricky business.
Probabilities are not well handled by our brain, statistics usually have a meaning which is not the one they appear to have (think of "p" in significance tests) and they are normally misinterpreted by authors and reviewers in scientific journals...
Why shouldn't a layman be misled by accurately misrepresented (correct) statistical results?
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby CanadysPeak on August 5th, 2015, 8:18 am 

neuro » Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:42 am wrote:
BadgerJelly » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:23 pm wrote:One thing I have noticed from the US is its obsession with statistics. Why is this?

I shouldn't see this as a defect.
In my opinion it indicates a positive attitude toward asking for some scientific, experimental, observational support to the claims that are made, and when you report a statistical datum it appears as such a support.

In many places (my Country is an example) anybody can stand up on TV and claim whatever they wish, and they will be regarded with the same respect and trust - or disrespect and diffidence - as a mathematician who rigorously demonstrates a theorem.

CanadysPeak » August 5th, 2015, 11:22 am wrote:
Only 73.8 % of us are obsessive about statistics. :>)
...
We are an illiterate nation in spite of our extraordinarily good higher education system.

Why do you think the US are particularly illiterate?
Statistics are a tricky business.
Probabilities are not well handled by our brain, statistics usually have a meaning which is not the one they appear to have (think of "p" in significance tests) and they are normally misinterpreted by authors and reviewers in scientific journals...
Why shouldn't a layman be misled by accurately misrepresented (correct) statistical results?


The simple answer is the PISA rankings,
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-26249042
That's 2014, but the overall effect is the same over a number of years.
US Department of Education reports (I apologize that I cannot find a link just now) show that roughly 1 in 7 US citizens cannot read, but roughly 1 in 5 of recent high school graduates cannot read. That's cannot read, not read poorly, or don't like to read, but cannot. There is a school system near me where over half the graduates cannot read a bus schedule (well, that's a sensationalist item, but you should see the point).

Were you making a pun when you said "Probabilities . . . are normally misrepresented . . ."?
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby neuro on August 5th, 2015, 8:45 am 

CanadysPeak » August 5th, 2015, 1:18 pm wrote:Were you making a pun when you said "Probabilities . . . are normally misrepresented . . ."?

The pun was actually involuntary... ("normally" here was supposed to mean "usually" and did not have anything to do with Mr Gauss)

But I was serious in scientists often misinterpreting statistics (not voluntarily)
and many people misrepresenting (voluntarily) statistics that are correctly computed, so to give messages the statistics per se do not actually support.
[note: here "statistics" is used in the technical meaning of a statistical parameters, such as mean, median, standard deviation, 10th percentile, Student's "t", chi-squared, "p", etc.]
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby Ursa Minimus on August 5th, 2015, 8:49 am 

One should never look at a study or two in a social science area, one should cast a wider net to see what the research findings as a set look like. Net, as in woven together, connected to each other somewhat.

http://www.asanet.org/press/Children_of ... Skills.cfm

“People tend to think that couples go through intense marital conflict before they decide to divorce,” said study author Hyun Sik Kim, a PhD candidate in sociology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. “My original prediction was that children of divorce would experience negative impacts even before formal divorce processes began. But, my study finds that this is not the case.”

Instead, Kim finds that children begin experiencing developmental problems after their parents commence the divorce process, and these issues continue to plague them even after the divorce is finalized. Interestingly, these problems neither worsen nor improve following the divorce.

“This study reveals that these negative impacts do not worsen in the post-divorce stage, although there is no sign that children of divorce catch up with their counterparts either,” Kim said.

Relying on nationally representative data from the Early Childhood Longitudinal Study-Kindergarten Class 1998 to 1999, the study traces the development of 3,585 kids from the time they entered kindergarten in the fall of 1998 through fifth grade, and compares children of divorce with kids from intact families. A unique feature of the study is that it focuses on divorces that occur when children are between first and third grade, which enables Kim to examine the effects of divorce during three separate stages: pre-divorce (kindergarten to first grade), during-divorce (first to third grade), and post-divorce (third to fifth grade).


So, the process seems bad for kids, from the start. But does anything mediate those problems?


http://www.jstor.org/stable/3088878

Three pathways are evaluated through which family disruption and discord may affect offspring's well-being: children's socioeconomic attainment, children's marital and relationship stability, and the quality of children's relations with parents. Using 17-year longitudinal data from two generations, results show that divorce and marital discord predict lower levels of psychological well-being in adulthood. Parent-child relationships mediate most of the associations between parents' marital discord and divorce and children's subsequent psychological outcomes.


That bolded part is key. If kids feel loved and secure before divorce, they will make it through pretty well. I've see that in many, many studies of different types, not just on divorce. On kids in communes, on moving, on stressful life events, on resisting early sexual behavior or drug use.... it's a big factor in life success.

And if one thinks that divorce is bad, then it makes sense to think multiple family structure transitions would be worse, right? Would that someone had studied that!

Oh, of course, people have.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3171291/

Past research suggests that children who experience multiple transitions in family structure may face worse developmental outcomes than children raised in stable two-parent families and perhaps even children raised in stable, single-parent families. However, multiple transitions and negative child outcomes may be associated because of common causal factors such as parents’ antecedent behaviors and attributes. Using a nationally-representative, two-generation longitudinal survey that includes detailed information on children’s behavioral and cognitive development, family history, and mother’s attributes prior to the child’s birth, we examine these alternative hypotheses. Our results suggest that, for white children, the association between the number of family structure transitions and cognitive outcomes is largely explained by mother’s prior characteristics but that the association between the number of transitions and behavioral outcomes may be causal in part. We find no robust effects of number of transitions for black children.




To the more general question of family and importance...

In terms of economic outcomes, family economic status explains about 50% of the child's economic status once adult for families in the USA. In other countries it might be lower, or even higher. Germany, 32%, Norway 17%, as two examples from one slide in one of my lectures.

So family is important to destiny, but not equally important everywhere. In fact, I bet we find divorce has a lower effect on children in Norway, given the above number and the wide spread and generous family support structures in place in Norway versus the US.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831341/ Norway based study. Which I have not read beyond the abstract at this point.

If people want a summary of the VOLUMINOUS research in this area, here are a couple of sociologically based ones. 1990: http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10 ... 190.002115 2013: http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10 ... 312-145704 One could do worse than starting with these two to get an impression of the big picture.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby neuro on August 5th, 2015, 9:26 am 

Thanks Ursa.

And, BTW,
Ursa Minimus » August 5th, 2015, 1:49 pm wrote:
Instead, Kim finds that children begin experiencing developmental problems after their parents commence the divorce process, and these issues continue to plague them even after the divorce is finalized. Interestingly, these problems neither worsen nor improve following the divorce.

it is curious that the problems seem not to be so great before the procedure starts, and are unrelated to the actual condition of a divorced family (don't worsen or improve afterwards).

Doesn't this suggest that the problem is not so much what the divorce produces (the official breakage of the family), but rather the process itself, and the changes and fears it carries with it (the fears that something irreparable is going to happen, the fear that (one of) the parents will disappear, the idea that it will not be possible to reconcile the parents afterwards...)?
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby Paralith on August 5th, 2015, 3:12 pm 

neuro wrote:Doesn't this suggest that the problem is not so much what the divorce produces (the official breakage of the family), but rather the process itself, and the changes and fears it carries with it (the fears that something irreparable is going to happen, the fear that (one of) the parents will disappear, the idea that it will not be possible to reconcile the parents afterwards...)?


I think that's exactly what Ursa is saying. Children who feel secure in their parent's love are better able to deal with the fears and difficulties associated with any major life change, including divorce.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby Athena on August 5th, 2015, 3:52 pm 

BadgerJelly » August 4th, 2015, 9:23 pm wrote:Personally I think not getting divorced can cause more problems than a divorce would. Parents staying together "for the sake of the children" are not being helpful to their children and merely adhering to what they are told is the correct thing to do.

I do think it is important for children to grow up in a loving environment and have exposure to a loving relationship from adults (be it parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, uncles,aunts, etc.,).

Base statistics of divorce rates and such don't tell the whole story. One thing I have noticed from the US is its obsession with statistics. Why is this?


Smile, why I obsessed with statistics? I think this is a poor understanding of statistics coupled with pride in being empirical and scientific. While this does not always have the best result, I think it is important to pay attention to the research.

I really hate the argument that divorce is better than staying in a bad marriage.
The great depression and second world war were devastating to marriage and as divorces increased, it was rationalized that children adjust, and divorce is better than staying in a bad marriage. That was before the research, and given the research we have today, we need to stop this careless attitude about marriage and divorce.

http://prospect.org/article/consequence ... motherhood
In 1992, when Dan Quayle condemned the television character Murphy Brown for giving birth out of wedlock, he reopened an old debate that quickly became highly polarized. Some people claimed that growing up in a fatherless home was the major cause of child poverty, delinquency, and school failure, while others denied that single motherhood had any harmful effects. And some objected even to discussing the topic for fear of stigmatizing single mothers and their children.

Not talking about single motherhood is scarcely an option. More than half of the children born in 1994 will spend some or all of their childhood with only one parent, typically their mother. If current patterns hold, they will likely experience higher rates of poverty, school failure, and other problems as they grow up. The long-range consequences could have enormous implications.

Some would like to prevent divorces and the social cost of divorce, but how do we prevent the problem, without taking away people's liberty? The only why I know to have both liberty, and avoid social problems, is education. This education is best when children are under age of 8. Literal changes to our brain structure and function, make it harder to influence the developing child after age 8.

We can not leave moral training to the parents because so many parents do not have a good understanding of morals and the importance of teaching them. I don't think we want to leave moral education to the church, as we have done since 1958, because that comes with baggage we don't want, and does not lead to the highest morality, or ability to make moral decisions in a high-tech society. If we want liberty and functioning democracy, there really is no way to manage these problems, other than through education.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby Athena on August 5th, 2015, 3:55 pm 

BadgerJelly » August 4th, 2015, 9:55 pm wrote:Marriage weakens the family. It is outdated and pointless. People just need to see beyond a piece of paper and learn to trust in human beings rather than the law.


Okay, like sand castles, civilizations need order. Without family order, how is a civilization order?
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby CanadysPeak on August 5th, 2015, 4:44 pm 

If we do agree that it is the responsibility of the state to instruct students about moral values, there are several questions we ought to ponder:

If the moral values being promoted by the state are at odds with those promoted by the parents, how does the student resolve this conflict? At what age should we expect a student to have sufficient free agency to tell his parents they're wrong and then suffer the consequences. How do we balance the possible damages?

At what age should we expect a student to have sufficient frontal development be able to fully engage in critical thinking?

If the parents' religious values are different from those promoted by the school, how do we keep SCOTUS from stopping this whole educational kerfuffle?

Should we encourage students to report their parents to the school? Suppose the parents have been divorced, should the student denounce them?

Can we have different moral values in Ohio than we have in Texas? What if a student moves from one state to another?

Would it not be more efficient if we simply mandated a list of federally approved morals and forced parents, under pain of death, to teach these moral values?

Suppose, for example, that I am raising my niece after my sister is incarcerated for dealing meth. Suppose that my niece starts having sex without my approval, gets pregnant, and has a child. Suppose then that the father of that child is incarcerated and my niece enters into a relationship with another young woman who entices my niece to walk about in public with her breasts exposed. Should I, at that point, be able to sue my niece's school for failing to teach her proper Christian morals? Does the answer change if we're Wiccan?
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby BadgerJelly on August 6th, 2015, 3:11 am 

Athena -

I really hate the argument that divorce is better than staying in a bad marriage. The great depression and second world war were devastating to marriage and as divorces increased, it was rationalized that children adjust, and divorce is better than staying in a bad marriage. That was before the research, and given the research we have today, we need to stop this careless attitude about marriage and divorce.


What if two people come to hate each other more and more each day? How do you think this is seen by the children. To them these are the only parents they know of. To them cloaked animosity is what is involved in a loving relationship.

I think it is naive to compare half a century ago to today. It is exactly this overly fond use of statistics in social sciences that leads to bad judgements and misrepresentations.

That said you may have a point that people don't take marriage as seriously as they used to. Maybe because it has become outdated? Maybe people have come to realise that together forever is ideal but not likely. Maybe people, women especially, are no longer confined by society and have enough freedom to move beyond the safety net that marriage provides for them (in the sense that in past eras marriage gave women needed financial security).

There is the option of legally forcing either the father or mother out of work to raise their children. I doubt any government could enforce this without bringing the country to a grinding halt.

Overall I do not think marriage has anything to do with successfully raising children with a sense of family and security. If the environment the children are raised in is loving then that is all that matters.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby neuro on August 6th, 2015, 4:51 am 

It is quite interesting that this thread was supposed to look at the problem of family and divorce in terms of research.

Then, as it appears inevitable with Athena's threads, it's become a preaching exercise in name of "good old values".
Which, apart from possibly irritating or boring other people, is a kind of totally sterile approach.

As it often happens, Canadys - who does not fear to speak clearly - has clarified what is going on here.
And I think his point is the most prominent here.
It connects back to other threads on education and democracy.

Good old values certainly are sacred. Are not they?
Anything that sounds transcendent, idealistic, unselfish, respectful and cooperative is sacred.
But the point is you cannot impose these values.
It would be dictatorship - please note that the Western culture criticizes religious regimens, such as some Islamic states, exactly because of this - independent of the intrinsic worth of the imposed values and of the good or bad intentions of those who impose them.

My impression is that we keep wandering around this same questions, in all these threads: Athena appears to be asking that somebody stands up and says "this and that (family, culture, ideals or whatever) are sacred values, let's defend them, let's organize the society in such a way that they are well assimilated by the youngsters and once more they become the pillars which our society stands on".

My answer to Athena is very simple - though it might be shocking:
this is exactly the way Islamic culture produces its kamikazes (or better shahīd, i.e. witness or martyr, from ʿamaliyyāt al-istishādiyya' = testimony operation).

I would be disappointed if this answer were taken by Athena as one more example of ignorant people being unable to understand what she's saying.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby BadgerJelly on August 6th, 2015, 6:08 am 

I understand Athena's concerns. I think what we are really looking for is an education that gives students freedom to discover what they can be.

Society has changed and intelligence is more respected (trendy). The whole "sexy geek" thing has popularised intelligence a little in the west. Attitudes to learning in generally are instilled not only at school but at home. I think the overall basic ideal is to encourage learning where possible rather than impose upon children what you think they should learn.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby Ursa Minimus on August 6th, 2015, 7:44 am 


Okay, like sand castles, civilizations need order. Without family order, how is a civilization order?


The "order" of family has always changed and will always change. Different order is not lack of order.

For example, did society collapse when wives became able to own property, and it did not just become the husband's property upon marriage? Nope.

Did the super high divorce rate in 1947 destroy the USA? Nope.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby Ursa Minimus on August 6th, 2015, 7:53 am 

Paralith » August 5th, 2015, 1:12 pm wrote:
neuro wrote:Doesn't this suggest that the problem is not so much what the divorce produces (the official breakage of the family), but rather the process itself, and the changes and fears it carries with it (the fears that something irreparable is going to happen, the fear that (one of) the parents will disappear, the idea that it will not be possible to reconcile the parents afterwards...)?


I think that's exactly what Ursa is saying. Children who feel secure in their parent's love are better able to deal with the fears and difficulties associated with any major life change, including divorce.


That is what the research says, as far as I know.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby Ursa Minimus on August 6th, 2015, 8:00 am 

Many say the family is the primary institution of society.

Not all.

For example, Anthony Giddens would point to the nation state as being a primary institution of modernity, while family was primary in pre-modernity. Marxists would say it is the system of economic production, in all times. Parsons was a cultural determinist, putting ultimate power not in the locus of family or any other institution, but in the cultural values and norms of a society as a whole.

In general, social scientists with a micro orientation would look to the family and family processes, but more macro social scientists would look at larger scale structures to identify the "primary" forces that shape behavior in a given society.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby Ursa Minimus on August 6th, 2015, 8:07 am 

neuro » August 5th, 2015, 4:27 am wrote:
“More likely” with respect to whom?

The control population cannot be the overall population, neither can be the happily living married couples.
A study should be performed by comparing divorced people with couples who can't stand their marriage anymore but did not divorce for cultural, economical, religious reasons. Especially with respect to the “their children experience psychological and economic stress” part.

Is anybody aware of such a study?



Nope.

But I think your best bet is to look at counseling research. I would guess there is research on couples who go to counseling (so they can't stand the marriage) and then who either divorce or don't, and then see what effects that has on kids. Throwing in some divorced/no counseling people would be a good idea as well.

A matched pair sample would be good. Ok, a matched subject sample to be technical, given 3 groups. A 10 year longitudinal study would be nice. I doubt you will find that in the lit, but you might find something on point.

Give me a couple million dollars, and wait a decade, and I can get you the answer you would like to see. :)
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby neuro on August 6th, 2015, 8:23 am 

Ursa Minimus » August 6th, 2015, 1:07 pm wrote:Give me a couple million dollars, and wait a decade, and I can get you the answer you would like to see. :)

Here in Europe, when you ask for funding for research you must grant some co-financing...
And in ten years, I dunno whether I'll be here to evaluate your final reports!
(actually, if I have to be fully sincere, I don't care much about such study: like almost everybody else, I stand content with my opinion on such matters :°)
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby Athena on August 6th, 2015, 11:15 am 

neuro » August 5th, 2015, 4:27 am wrote:This topic seemed to attempt a “research based approach”. So, my contribution will try to comply with such aim.
Athena » August 5th, 2015, 1:36 am wrote:Two things concern me strongly, education and family. Together these are the foundation of our nations and futures. It might help to be dependent on research, so here is a research-based explanation of why family order is important.

Divorce weakens society http://info.legalzoom.com/effects-di...ety-20105.html
Quote:
Divorce can save people from a bad marriage, but research has shown that it can also debilitate a society. Divorced adults are more likely to become impoverished while their children experience psychological and economic stress hindering their social development.

“More likely” with respect to whom?

The control population cannot be the overall population, neither can be the happily living married couples.
A study should be performed by comparing divorced people with couples who can't stand their marriage anymore but did not divorce for cultural, economical, religious reasons. Especially with respect to the “their children experience psychological and economic stress” part.

Is anybody aware of such a study?

The Familiy as Society's Nucleus
Divorce hinders society by dissolving families and weakening belief in the family as an essential social unit. To sociologists, the family does more than unite people by marriage and blood or adoption; it provides the educational, financial and emotional support its members need to thrive socially....


Scientifically speaking, this looks to me as backward reasoning.
The story is presented as if divorce were the cause of weakening and dissolution of the Family (capital to indicate the "institution", family + the belief in the family).
The alternative perspective, i.e. that divorce be the result of a sociological drift toward a weakening of the nuclear family as a founding structure of society, should also be examined.

Whether such drift ought to be fought against (which seems to be Athena's point) is another story...


Nuro I agree we have a drift toward weakening families and I will stand by my argument that is bad not only for children but the country. Civilizations must have social organization and if that is not the family, what will it be?

Reading your post was very depressing to me, so I am coming back with some good information!

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/busin ... .html?_r=0

There are plenty of people saying Netflix's offer of expanded maternity and paternity leave will not work, and I pray they prove it can work, because it is as important as the success if the US democracy when no one thought it would work. I would say the number one problem of in the US today is autocratic industry that is historically anti family. I think living with anti family, autocratic industry plays into our bad reputation around the world, where our industry has been hostile to the people. These people do not know, our industry is just as bad to us! I pray, Netflix proves it is possible to succeed and be family friendly! This could be a huge game changer at home and around the world.

If we start thinking our families and nature and health are important, then perhaps we will demand our industry live up to higher environment and human standards.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby Athena on August 6th, 2015, 11:25 am 

Ursa Minimus » August 6th, 2015, 6:07 am wrote:
neuro » August 5th, 2015, 4:27 am wrote:
“More likely” with respect to whom?

The control population cannot be the overall population, neither can be the happily living married couples.
A study should be performed by comparing divorced people with couples who can't stand their marriage anymore but did not divorce for cultural, economical, religious reasons. Especially with respect to the “their children experience psychological and economic stress” part.

Is anybody aware of such a study?



Nope.

But I think your best bet is to look at counseling research. I would guess there is research on couples who go to counseling (so they can't stand the marriage) and then who either divorce or don't, and then see what effects that has on kids. Throwing in some divorced/no counseling people would be a good idea as well.

A matched pair sample would be good. Ok, a matched subject sample to be technical, given 3 groups. A 10 year longitudinal study would be nice. I doubt you will find that in the lit, but you might find something on point.

Give me a couple million dollars, and wait a decade, and I can get you the answer you would like to see. :)


I would bet the biggest cause of divorce is poor communication skills and especially poor conflict resolution skills. Secondly, if a couple does care enough to give counseling a serious try, if they do separate, they are more likely to make arguments that protect the children.

Here's a thought, anyone can get married, but no one with children can get a divorce without counseling, and there would be no no-fault divorces, but counseling would include evaluation of how cooperative each person was, and the score would be considered in the divorce court.
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Re: Importance of Family

Postby CanadysPeak on August 6th, 2015, 11:26 am 

Neuro, Ursa, and Athena,

No matter whether we find divorce as weakening the family or not, or whether we find a strong family the foundation of a strong society or not, what could we do? There is a thing (perhaps Ursa can help me here) in which damage to the family is thought to "cast a shadow" down many generations. If that is the case, any change we now make might take a century or more to be realized in benefit. In the meanwhile, lots and lots of people would be unwilling to go along with restraints on divorce, eh? It seems a bit like standing at the US-Mexican border and saying, "OK, one at a time please." Possibly good for us, but difficult to implement.
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