Racial disparity in recent FBI crime statistics

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Racial disparity in recent FBI crime statistics

Postby ronjanec on March 31st, 2016, 9:43 am 

mtbturtle » Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:58 am wrote:
ronjanec » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:43 pm wrote:
The Liberal/Progressive main stream media in Chicago(and I understand also in many other areas of the country) does everything in their power to try to cover up black violent crime here in again Chicago, by very rarely mentioning the (usually) black race of the same violent criminals, so as not to offend their (usually) fellow liberal black viewers and readers.

According to the latest FBI crime statistics, black people in the US commit a vastly disapportinate large amount of all violent crimes compared to white people: They also commit a vastly disapportinate large amount of black on white violent crime versus an almost nonexistent amount of white on black violent crime.


is not.


Matt Drudge, in addition to linking to individual stories involving where white people commit violent crimes in the US, also links to individual stories where black people commit violent crimes in the US, and since there is again a vastly disapportinate amount of black violent crime in the US compared to white violent crime, there are far more examples of this in the stories on his website.

This is not "racism" on his part, this is reality:


I guess you missed the part about standard journalist practices and ethics means they don't mention race if it isn't relevant. Drudge highlights the race in his headlines when it isn't relevant is race baiting


https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/c ... s/table-43

is so.

"standard journalist practices and ethics!? You mean like yesterday's example with Donald Trump's ambush "interview" on MSNBC?
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Re: Drudge Racist?m

Postby mtbturtle on March 31st, 2016, 10:05 am 

ronjanec » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:43 am wrote:
mtbturtle » Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:58 am wrote:
ronjanec » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:43 pm wrote:
The Liberal/Progressive main stream media in Chicago(and I understand also in many other areas of the country) does everything in their power to try to cover up black violent crime here in again Chicago, by very rarely mentioning the (usually) black race of the same violent criminals, so as not to offend their (usually) fellow liberal black viewers and readers.

According to the latest FBI crime statistics, black people in the US commit a vastly disapportinate large amount of all violent crimes compared to white people: They also commit a vastly disapportinate large amount of black on white violent crime versus an almost nonexistent amount of white on black violent crime.


is not.


Matt Drudge, in addition to linking to individual stories involving where white people commit violent crimes in the US, also links to individual stories where black people commit violent crimes in the US, and since there is again a vastly disapportinate amount of black violent crime in the US compared to white violent crime, there are far more examples of this in the stories on his website.

This is not "racism" on his part, this is reality:


I guess you missed the part about standard journalist practices and ethics means they don't mention race if it isn't relevant. Drudge highlights the race in his headlines when it isn't relevant is race baiting


https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/c ... s/table-43

is so.


That page does not support your claim that there is a "vastly disapportinate (sic) amount of black violent crime in the US compared to white violent crime." Drudge race baits.

"standard journalist practices and ethics!? You mean like yesterday's example with Donald Trump's ambush "interview" on MSNBC?


Trump once again is in trouble with conservatives cause he spoke their mind just like he does when he spouts off his racist bs. Tell me ron what do we do with murderers?
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Re: Drudge Racist?

Postby ronjanec on March 31st, 2016, 10:53 am 

12 to 13 percent of the black population commits 50 percent of the murders manslaughter etc. A third of the rapes and aggravated assaults? More than half of the robberies? Etc etc. You might need some new glasses mtburtle.

I will take a pass on answering your other question because I know where you are going with this mtbturtle. I learned many years ago not to get into another discussion or debate with you about abortion. :)

How can you always claim that members of the Liberal/Progressive main stream media are "not biased" towards Republicans and their beliefs when they pull stunts like this on a very regular basis?
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Re: Drudge Racist?

Postby mtbturtle on March 31st, 2016, 11:34 am 

ronjanec » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:53 am wrote:12 to 13 percent of the black population commits 50 percent of the murders manslaughter etc. A third of the rapes and aggravated assaults? More than half of the robberies? Etc etc. You might need some new glasses mtburtle.


You do understand the difference between commits and arrested for don't you? What your table in fact shows is the systemic racism of our Justice System (See Michelle Alexander The New Jim Crow for a detailed analysis) Again, your table and your analysis do not support the claim you are making.


I will take a pass on answering your other question because I know where you are going with this mtbturtle. I learned many years ago not to get into another discussion or debate with you about abortion. :)

How can you always claim that members of the Liberal/Progressive main stream media are "not biased" towards Republicans and their beliefs when they pull stunts like this on a very regular basis?


I don't remember ever making such a claim. Oh poor Donald he spoke their minds and that's his biggest sin.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby mtbturtle on March 31st, 2016, 8:06 pm 

The implication that Blacks are violent is of course a racist stereotype. It's not true Ron, it's not reality, but it is a racist view.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby ronjanec on March 31st, 2016, 8:22 pm 

mtbturtle » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:06 pm wrote:The implication that Blacks are violent is of course a racist stereotype. It's not true Ron, it's not reality, but it is a racist view.


You know mtbturtle, I do not appreciate you starting new threads in my name without my personal permission, and also using your own personal choice of words for "my" thread title.

And this is not the first time that you have done this. Will one of the other Admins or Mods please remove this nonsense.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby mtbturtle on March 31st, 2016, 8:28 pm 

ronjanec » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:22 pm wrote:
mtbturtle » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:06 pm wrote:The implication that Blacks are violent is of course a racist stereotype. It's not true Ron, it's not reality, but it is a racist view.


You know mtbturtle, I do not appreciate you starting new threads in my name without my personal permission, and also using your own personal choice of words for "my" thread title.

And this is not the first time that you have done this. Will one of the other Admins or Mods please remove this nonsense.


No I will not remove it. Try feedback if you want. I don't need your permission. The topic title is almost a direct quote slightly shortened to fit the topic length "black people in the US commit a vastly disapportinate large amount of all violent crimes compared to white people: They also commit a vastly disapportinate large amount of black on white violent crime versus an almost nonexistent amount of white on black violent crime." (ronjanec) That is the claim you made is it not? Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby Lomax on March 31st, 2016, 9:08 pm 

Just as there's a tinge of antisemitism on the hard-Left, there is evident white supremacism on the hard-Right. Anyone who pretends never to have noticed is, I think, either playing innocent or just making sure they don't get lumped in with it.

Having never read or cared about the Drudge Report I don't have an opinion on whether it's racist. But I do think it should be recognised that just because somebody doesn't notice the difference between high rates of black arrests and high rates of black crime, doesn't mean they are racist. Rigorous scientific methodology isn't something the lay man has time to think about all day.

As it happens there are plenty of liberals and egalitarians who believe that black people commit more violent crime than whites. There's obviously controversy over the cause, and to what extent it's sociological; Steven Pinker's The Better Angels of our Nature contains testimony both from black ghetto residents and from white policemen that police are simply more reluctant to respond on the side of a black person, and that this lack of state support leads poor black people to take matters into their own hands more often. Obviously such a problem, if it exists, forms a vicious spiral.

We do know that black people tend to have higher testosterone, and that there is a (complex) link between testosterone and aggression. It isn't contested that men commit more violent crime than women, and I'm not offended by the suggestion. Equally, it's rarely used as an excuse for oppressing men from the outset. When the police and the political Right stop using higher reported rates of black crime as an excuse to exclude or suspect the black community, liberals might be able to engage them in a mature discussion about this without dismissing everything they think to be false as racist.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby Natural ChemE on March 31st, 2016, 10:17 pm 

mtbturtle,

I wasn't aware that ronjanec's claims were factually controversial. I just figured that it was a difficult topic for some folks to have to confront since racists can use the facts in an attempt to justify their own poor behavior.

Still, as someone who strongly believes that facing reality tends to lead to a better future, I'm hopeful about this topic. If the black community does have much higher crime rates - as really does appear to be the case - then that means that there's a massive opportunity to improve human lives.

Personally I'm a fan of programs aimed at giving youth better options. Stuff like improving access to education and career advancement opportunities should be a big help. Youth who feel nurtured and valued are youth who'll develop better socialization.

I guess that the important point is for us to focus on positivity and solutions.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby ronjanec on March 31st, 2016, 10:53 pm 

Natural ChemE » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:17 pm wrote:mtbturtle,

I wasn't aware that ronjanec's claims were factually controversial. I just figured that it was a difficult topic for some folks to have to confront since racists can use the facts in an attempt to justify their own poor behavior.

Still, as someone who strongly believes that facing reality tends to lead to a better future, I'm hopeful about this topic. If the black community does have much higher crime rates - as really does appear to be the case - then that means that there's a massive opportunity to improve human lives.

Personally I'm a fan of programs aimed at giving youth better options. Stuff like improving access to education and career advancement opportunities should be a big help. Youth who feel nurtured and valued are youth who'll develop better socialization.

I guess that the important point is for us to focus on positivity and solutions rather than negativity and defeatism.


If people are afraid to discuss this same problem, and then effectively not look for any solutions to the same problem, the problem will almost certainly just get much worse.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby Natural ChemE on March 31st, 2016, 11:20 pm 

ronjanec » March 31st, 2016, 9:53 pm wrote:If people are afraid to discuss this same problem, and then effectively not look for any solutions to the same problem, the problem will almost certainly just get much worse.

Well said!

Topics like this can be tough for people to face down. Facts or not, they're not particularly flattering, and folks in the black community can be rightfully concerned about the possibility that public recognition of the facts could help legitimize racism.

I think that positivity's the ticket. Politicians shouldn't ignore or deny the facts, but rather focus on how they can help make the communities that they serve better.

For example, I just checked the top "Urban Policy" story at Black Community News to see what they were writing about. It's The Government-Dependency Dilemma, which discusses - rather than denies - the issue with welfare dependency. Clicking through the stories at Black Community News, I get the impression that they're realists who face the facts to advocate positive policy change.

I think it's that sort of perspective that'll really make the story better for everyone.

PS - Oh, their second story in the Urban Policy section is Investing in Social Services Programs That Work - gotta love their positive focus! It's this sort of solution-focused thinking that'll lead to a brighter future.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby zetreque on March 31st, 2016, 11:21 pm 

Do people understand that because black people were held back for so long (slavery and such things), the majority of them are poorer than whites? Can I make a statement that poor people probably commit more violent crimes than rich? Obviously since there are more poor people than rich. lol
So if more black people are poor than white, what does that tell you? Logic.

Not to mention the whole history of this country defining "white" and institutionalizing benefits to white males.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby ronjanec on March 31st, 2016, 11:51 pm 

zetreque » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:21 pm wrote:Do people understand that because black people were held back for so long (slavery and such things), the majority of them are poorer than whites? Can I make a statement that poor people probably commit more violent crimes than rich? Obviously since there are more poor people than rich. lol
So if more black people are poor than white, what does that tell you? Logic.


No adult black person today was born a slave, and slavery has very little to do with any black person today being poorer than any white person, with the very rare exception of possibly missing out on some very long ago inheritances that their great great grandparents could have earned and then passed on to them if they were not slaves.

The vast majority of long ago white inheritances, are usually squandered by the following generations until there is usually very little or even nothing left anyway for the present generation of the same family.

Yes, poor people commit more violent crimes than rich people, but that is certainly not an excuse for doing this to any other people. And the same adult poor people, usually have only themselves to blame for being poor in the first place.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby Lomax on April 1st, 2016, 12:02 am 

ronjanec » April 1st, 2016, 4:51 am wrote:No adult black person today was born a slave, and slavery has very little to do with any black person today being poorer than any white person, with the very rare exception of possibly missing out on some very long ago inheritances that their great great grandparents could have earned and then passed on to them if they were not slaves.

The vast majority of long ago white inheritances, are usually squandered by the following generations until there is usually very little or even nothing left anyway for the present generation of the same family.

If the excuse you make is true, I'm curious as to how you explain the USA's low social mobility. In other words: if the economic status of your ancestry doesn't particularly affect your own set of opportunities, why is it that the born-poor so regularly shun the chance to make themselves rich?
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby Natural ChemE on April 1st, 2016, 1:12 am 

Lomax » March 31st, 2016, 11:02 pm wrote:If the excuse you make is true, I'm curious as to how you explain the USA's low social mobility.

This might be kind of a touchy topic, but ronjanec's correct that intergenerational wealth is not primarily passed down through inheritance. This is, while there are strong intergenerational correlations, the phenomena causing these correlations is not direct money transfer. Well, for the great majority of the population - the ultra-rich do inherit a lot of wealth, but they're a very small minority that lives in a very different world; the reported correlations aren't about them.

As noted in a study you'd linked in a prior thread, the intergenerational correlations in wealth are largely explained by the intergenerational correlations in academic achievement, which are extremely heritable:
  1. The high heritability of educational achievement reflects many genetically influenced traits, not just intelligence, PNAS (2014);
  2. Genes don't just influence your IQ—they determine how well you do in school, Science (2014).
Lomax » March 31st, 2016, 11:02 pm wrote:In other words: if the economic status of your ancestry doesn't particularly affect your own set of opportunities, why is it that the born-poor so regularly shun the chance to make themselves rich?
It appears that the born-poor aren't shunning wealth, but rather attempting to earn wealth with abilities that strongly correlate to their parents'.


PS - Just because I think it's such a great example of social mobility and the US being a meritocracy rather than an aristocracy, Asian Americans are quickly catching whites in the wealth race, CNN (2015), reports that Asians obtain college degrees as a rate significantly higher than any other racial group including whites, leading to their status as top earners:
    Image.
On-median, Asians started out with a lot less wealth in recent history, but they're still outperforming whites anyway. This demonstrates what I feel to be the essence of social mobility.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby zetreque on April 1st, 2016, 1:16 am 

ronjanec » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:51 pm wrote:
No adult black person today was born a slave, and slavery has very little to do with any black person today being poorer than any white person, with the very rare exception of possibly missing out on some very long ago inheritances that their great great grandparents could have earned and then passed on to them if they were not slaves.

The vast majority of long ago white inheritances, are usually squandered by the following generations until there is usually very little or even nothing left anyway for the present generation of the same family.

Yes, poor people commit more violent crimes than rich people, but that is certainly not an excuse for doing this to any other people. And the same adult poor people, usually have only themselves to blame for being poor in the first place.


You have to be absolutely kidding me. Money makes money. Wealth = education. Education = making more money. Wealth = who you know. Money = controlling the media feeding the stereotype to maintain their advantage/power. Generations of people have built up wealth over time. It's a fact. It has everything to do with it. Then you have people like Trump reinforcing this crap giving up 100 years worth of civil liberties of women's rights and equal rights. And I'm not talking about your one time wealthy blacks or other races here and there but the majority of society is still structured because of history. It's better than it has been in the past but the majority of wealthy people are white and it's because of history. I'm not going to give you a whole history lesson here.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby zetreque on April 1st, 2016, 1:20 am 

This is so sad. I'm out of here. Have fun all.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby Natural ChemE on April 1st, 2016, 2:15 am 

zetreque » April 1st, 2016, 12:20 am wrote:This is so sad. I'm out of here. Have fun all.

Yeah, this topic's unlikely to make anyone smile.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby mtbturtle on April 1st, 2016, 9:21 am 

I don't think it takes a rigorous understanding about scientific social methodology to read a table of numbers labeled arrests and understand there is a difference between commits violent acts and arrested.

I also think this canard about Blacks is very old and very deep in the racist lore. So shouldn't be written off so easily or seen as harmless. The Republicans are so a wash in this type of thinking that they don't recognize it and further they do think it is reality as their media outlets like Drudge pump them full of fear and hate of Blacks daily.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby ronjanec on April 1st, 2016, 2:51 pm 

I have decided to no longer comment in this thread, and I will not respond to anything directed towards me in this thread. Thanks.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby Serpent on April 1st, 2016, 4:00 pm 

There is nothing like an open-minded, well-informed, positive approach to solving a perceived problem!
Well, there is nothing like that here, anyway.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby Natural ChemE on April 1st, 2016, 4:27 pm 

Serpent » April 1st, 2016, 3:00 pm wrote:There is nothing like an open-minded, well-informed, positive approach to solving a perceived problem!
Well, there is nothing like that here, anyway.

Why the snarky negativity?

I don't mean this rhetorically, but rather I seriously don't get what possible motivation a person could have for going out of their way to post comments like this.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby Serpent on April 1st, 2016, 5:42 pm 

Natural ChemE » April 1st, 2016, 3:27 pm wrote:
Serpent » April 1st, 2016, 3:00 pm wrote:There is nothing like an open-minded, well-informed, positive approach to solving a perceived problem!
Well, there is nothing like that here, anyway.

Why the snarky negativity?

I don't mean this rhetorically, but rather I seriously don't get what possible motivation a person could have for going out of their way to post comments like this.

I don't know about skanky.
The reason a person might want to comment on the quality of discourse on a thread is that they care about the topic.
If we really wanted to address the question of crime and/or violent crime in America, we could begin by testing the factual validity of the opening statement by comparing statistics from a spectrum of sources on various aspects of the question. Having established whether it is or is not true and adjusted for accuracy, we might compare populations, regional and economic conditions, historical antecedents and social factors.
Then, we might propose solutions, as you have done, and compare the efficacy of solutions that have been tried in different places.
However, this may not an be appropriate response in this case.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby Natural ChemE on April 1st, 2016, 6:15 pm 

Serpent,

Hah, gotcha! My apologies for misunderstanding. And, yeah, I agree that we could do a better job at addressing topics like this in a more direct, objective way.
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby Serpent on April 1st, 2016, 7:45 pm 

No problem. If and when we do, may I suggest not starting with race?
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Re: Blacks commit more violent crimes than Whites

Postby mtbturtle on April 7th, 2016, 8:59 pm 

Numerous links to articles

http://citizenshipandsocialjustice.com/2015/07/10/curriculum-for-white-americans-to-educate-themselves-on-race-and-racism/

Curriculum for White Americans to Educate Themselves on Race and Racism–from Ferguson to Charleston

Posted By Jon Greenberg on Jul 10, 2015

MalcolmXWhen teaching about race and racism, I invite participants to consider the following analogy: Think of racism as a gigantic societal-sized boot.



“Which groups do you think are fighting the hardest against this boot of racism?” I ask them. Invariably, participants of diverse races answer that those fighting hardest to avoid getting squashed by the boot are people of Color. (Keep in mind that I don’t ask this question on day one of our study of race. Rather, participants come to this conclusion after exploring the concept of White privilege and studying the history of race and racism in the United States through multiple sources and perspectives.)



“If that’s true,” I continue, “then who do you think is wearing the boot?” The participants’ answer (though it often only reluctantly hits the air): White people.



“If that’s true, then whose responsibility is it to stop the boot from squashing them? The people of Color already pushing upward and resisting the boot? Or the people wearing the boot–consciously or not–who contribute to a system that pushes downward?”



Everyone has a role in ending racism, but the analogy shows how little sense it makes for only those facing the heel-end of oppression to do all the work. It’s time for White America to take on a far bigger role in taking off the boot.



There are no doubt complexities that come with White Americans working for racial justice. White privilege can lead to a chronic case of undiagnosed entitlement, creating poor listeners, impatient speakers who talk over others, and people unaccustomed to taking orders. Nevertheless, the movement for racial justice needs more White Americans to get involved. And it’s our responsibility to help each other get involved–and get involved productively.


numerous links to accessible articles regarding race, racism and white privilege.
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Re: Racial disparity in FBI crime statistics

Postby Natural ChemE on April 24th, 2016, 7:25 pm 

Folks,

I'd updated the thread title as requested in the Feedback forum to take cultural sensitivity into account.

Since it's been a while, I wanted to add another quick observation to this thread - that while the racial disparity in crime rates appears to be a very real thing, I'd shy away from seeing a propensity toward violent crime as a racial trait.

For example, here's a world map color-coded to show intentional homicide rates:
    Image.
On average, Africa does have a relatively high intentional homicide rate, at intentional homicides per 100,000 inhabitants per year, versus the global average of .

However:
  1. The Americas had an even higher rate than Africa, at .
  2. Africa's rates varied heavily by country.
  3. Crime rates vary significantly over time.
The racial disparity in crime statistics does appear to be both real and severe. However, after looking at the global/historical picture, it seems unlikely that the racial disparity is actually a direct consequence of race. These disparities strike me as speaking to current cultural happenstance.

In short, I think that the more immediate issues are social/cultural as opposed to racial.


PS - I usually do a lot of fact-checking before making a post, but I didn't here; these numbers are straight from the linked Wikipedia articles. I didn't fact check for two reasons: (1) I don't have time; (2) I don't think that a fact check would do anything to change the observation that I was drawing from these numbers: that crime rates vary significantly by time, place, and cultural, rather than being a simple function of race.

PPS - Added the "recent" qualifier to the thread title. This was meant to highlight that we're looking at a time-dependent phenomena; I suspect that racial differences will tend to erode over time as racial communities integrate, adopting a more common culture.
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Re: Racial disparity in FBI crime statistics

Postby Serpent on April 24th, 2016, 8:05 pm 

As a matter of context: How many of the hot-spots of violent crime can be linked directly to recent political/military/economic upheavals? The more 'developed' nations have a tendency to off-load many of their own problems (not to mention excess guns) on less developed countries.

Who defines what a crime is in each place? Seems to me a dictatorial government would arrest people for protesting or writing seditious articles, for example and self-defense against local militia might be classed as first degree murder. So might sporadic territorial disputes and feuds between groups that were forced into close quarters and scarcity by an outside agency.

Statistics are tricky. The second most obvious correlation i would look for is preponderance of firearms.
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Re: Racial disparity in recent FBI crime statistics

Postby Braininvat on April 25th, 2016, 9:46 am 

Yeah, the hot spots all seem to be places with massive political corruption and/or "honor cultures."

Except Greenland...not sure what's going on there, but I suspect it relates to alcohol and the mere fact of being in Greenland.
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Re: Racial disparity in recent FBI crime statistics

Postby Serpent on April 25th, 2016, 10:15 am 

There is yet another aspect to violent crime and race. If a white cop shoots a black teenager, that doesn't go in the statistics. If a white vigilante shoots a black teenager and isn't convicted (wtf?) it's not a crime. If a black teenager is arrested for a shooting he didn't commit, it goes in the statistics, whether he's convicted (likely) or not. Statistics are tricky. But mostly, it's about hopelessness, drugs, booze and guns.
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