Pride and Ownership

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Pride and Ownership

Postby zetreque on December 10th, 2016, 9:37 pm 

One of the many many parts of sustainability I have discovered is Pride.

When someone is proud of their work, where they live, or something they own, they take care of it more in general.

Like if you own your home, you want the yard to look nice. You generally don't throw trash on the ground in your yard. If you rent, you are less likely to really take care of fixing up the place. If you are renting an even more temporary place like a motel room, you are probably even less likely to pick up and keep the place clean.

There are exceptions where some people will rent a place then spend a lot of money fixing it up. Or someone will live in a neighborhood and throw trash on the ground and spit in the walk ways but usually in dense rental areas.

If this ownership and sense of pride makes people take care of things more, then I was just wondering, how would we nurture and encourage this trait in people both on the small scale and global?

Another example is patriotism and national pride for a country.

And yet another idea is that when you are proud of where you live, you buy t-shirts, clothing or other items that adorn the symbol, logo, or name. Like in school, people buy sweatshirts, or sports merchandise. When people go on vacation, they like the area so they buy merchandise that adorns the place. If people are proud of where they live, then they adorn themselves with it's name and logo. My thought is that if you are more proud of where you live and buy locally made product or merchandise with the name on it, you are more likely to take care of it. (The counter argument is that if you are on vacation and you really like a place, you might not take care of it because you don't have anything invested in that location).

The reason I think pride is part of sustainability is not only that people tend to take care of things more but also because they will buy local products. On the national scale for example, people like to buy products that are "Made in the USA" if they live in the US as a sense of pride. It's more sustainable because less transportation energy and if you are buying locally there is less chance that the manufacturing of that item causes pollution since the pollution is more visible.

Pride can be taken in a bad way too. Like being too proud to accept help, but is there any way we can build a culture of pride that is beneficial to the world?

Thoughts?
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby Serpent on December 10th, 2016, 10:59 pm 

If this ownership and sense of pride makes people take care of things more, then I was just wondering, how would we nurture and encourage this trait in people both on the small scale and global?

You said it, right there. Ownership. Give them a stake, let them participate, and they'll step up. Make them feel as if they had no share in the benefits, no say in the decisions, as if they don't count, and they'll stop caring. This isn't just about school pride or nationalism or keeping neighbourhoods clean - it's about all social interaction.
Patients who are listened-to and included in decisions about their treatment make more effort to keep up the regimen and diet. Children who are included in family councils are more likely to do their chores and adhere to the rules. Citizens who believe their votes matter come out for elections.

(PS I'm not a big fan of wearing logos or buying team pennants, school sweatshirts or Disney lunch-boxes. Money corrupts; merchandizing debases.)
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby zetreque on December 10th, 2016, 11:15 pm 

How do we give people a sense of ownership over public lands?
Or private industry that produces goods? hmmm
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby Serpent on December 10th, 2016, 11:51 pm 

Private industry has done a terrific lot of brainwashing to get the people on board. Most ordinary citizens, who get stuck with the cleanup bill after an industry messes up the landscape, or who are left unemployed after a factory relocates to China, or whose pensions are lost in a corporate bankruptcy will still vote for deregulation and tax cuts. Most of the victims of capitalism are fervent believers in capitalism. It's a kind of Stockholm syndrome.
You don't have to do anything to get the proletariat supporting private industry. You can't do anything to get industry involved in its environment, because they already own everything and take pride in nothing.

How to involve people in the care of public lands - public libraries, schools, clinics, fire departments, parks and works: If they felt that the government was for them, they would feel that whatever is government controlled is also theirs. Government now is so schizophrenic, it doesn't know which of its tentacles are controlled by whom, and for whose benefit. While the executive pays lip-service to democracy, it's really for the mega-rich; at the same time, many government organs continue to struggle to be and to act, for the people, but are not empowered to do what the people need.
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby Scott Mayers on December 11th, 2016, 6:14 am 

I understand your initial take on 'pride' zetreque. But the nature of 'pride' in ownership is more exploited to take advantage of that control over others. "Ownership" is a conditional power granted to specific people or 'persons' (as in corporations) but its incentive to PROFIT (get more out of something one invests in) is the countervice to the benefits you mentioned.

I had a friend once who actually DID invest greatly in his place AS A RENTER. He was permitted by his landlord to construct a soundproof studio in the basement on the understanding that he was going to live there for a long time without concern to require 'owning'. But it backfired. After he constructed this, the owner used that as leverage and actually blackmailed him into either requiring to pay highly for it OR to move out so that the landlord could sell the house with its added value.

So 'ownership', if it is ONLY about one's personal domain may help to assure one treats things with possible 'pride'. But in actual reality, if owners use this FOR other's capacity to lease, just as many owners let the places they are renting depreciate to maximize profits lost should they put that money aside instead. That's why you get ghettos filled with unkept structures.

And to corporate entities, I think the laws on this have evolved beyond its original public intents and its limited liability to investors also makes them less accountable to put more into some investment than is needed for its greater return. And if they don't PROFIT, they have the ease to simply abandon responsibility through bankruptcy. They only LOOSE their initial investment and lack a need to 'inherit' the losses. As a 'person' the corporation then passes the losses to society upon its virtual death.

"Pride" is more destructive against outsiders (non-owners). What is 'owned' would make people treat their actual OWN private places better only to the degree of comfort they have for where they'd rent too. It is only about how much INVESTED additional efforts beyond their norm does 'ownership' enhance these factors. One who is clean on their own will also clean regardless of place. Ownership that permits one inherent gains (or absence of them) also contribute to this. If you are poor and own a house, there will be a greater tendency for such a place to degrade regardless. What bugs me about 'ownership' of rental places is that the owners more often think they have EARNED some inherent right to 'profit'. This is why one might be even rationally hesitant about investing more than one needs in such places because they are by default being exploited legally. [....because a profit is like the 'acceleration' of ownership, not just a 'balance' of input-to-output.]
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby vivian maxine on December 11th, 2016, 9:26 am 

My father had the same experience as did your friend, Scott. He got permission to build an extra room onto a house he was renting (at his own cost). Then the rent was increased so much that he had to move out.

Apartments. I've moved into apartments, spent a small fortune fixing them up and then discovered that the owner couldn't care less if the building was deteriorating. A large complex. Owner beautifies magnificently around the rental office but does nothing on the rest of the property.

Two sides to every story?
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby weakmagneto on December 11th, 2016, 12:20 pm 

If this ownership and sense of pride makes people take care of things more, then I was just wondering, how would we nurture and encourage this trait in people both on the small scale and global?


There are so many variables that I find it difficult to answer this question. Following is just a small list of some of those variables for consideration:

1. There are a lot of people out there just struggling to have their basic needs met.
2. There are many people struggling with addictions.
3. There are some people who are made to feel like outsiders in their own country or feel like they are not valued.
4. If you are impoverished, you will more than likely buy the cheapest product that you can afford.
5. Is there some sort of trauma or conflict in their lives? Have they been affected by trauma or conflict?
6. Pride is affected by a sense of self. Your sense of self may change throughout your lifetime due to outside and internal influences such as health, mental status, peer pressure, self-esteem, societal influences ie conspiracy theories, religion or spirituality, political affiliation...
7. Education level.
8. Employment status: Are people happy in their jobs? Are they being paid enough? Are they a workaholic? Are they employed?

Overall, the determinants of health play a HUGE role in nurturing pride in one's life and are the root causes of why pride is not instilled in or a priority for some people.

Sorry about the scattered thoughts -- I am sick right now!
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby Forest_Dump on December 11th, 2016, 2:15 pm 

There are definitely a ton of issues and questions here. There are appeals to individuals and then groups but that can become a quick mix and match. Group pride often becomes an issue of how the group is defined and what values they might share. Right off the bat I thought of many baseball hats identifying the owners as having Red Pride or Native Pride that presumably convey some shared values, etc., but I don't often see that played out. And of course, if someone were to sport a hat proclaiming White Pride, and whole different narrative would probably be read.

Ownership also assumes many different ideas. Personally I think there is a difference between ownership that is somehow earned vs. ownership that is given or inherited. Is it fair to say we always value things we didn't work for and earn and so don't know the value of? At least some here, for example, might be tempted to look contemptuously on the "rich and privaleged" people who inherited their 1% status and membership but see no problem with taking pride in their equally unearned but inherited national identity and resources and want to protect these from others. Of course, with a little thought, we can quickly and easily see that any such group is an imagined community that often shares very little. The OP, for example, refers to taking pride in property to create and maintain a uniform appearance such as the well-maintained lawns and flower gardens inherited as an ideal from the Victorian gardens. I, however, don't share that set of values and often prefer some of the more ecletic gardens I have seen in some big city downtown areas or, much better still, the fully and truly wild around me now (I honestly wish I would never see a mown lawn again - give me one overgrow in weeds and wildflowers any time.)

Were I to buy 10,000 ha of country up around here (and such a purchase of untitled land is definitely possible in these parts at a surprisingly reasonable price) what should I do with it? I might be inclined to keep it wild because that is to my tastes. Would that provide any benefit to even the most ardent naturalists? Many would probably say yes but I would still think quite possibly not because they would never see or get to enjoy the benifits and might even need to accept the very existence of this natural state purely on faith. On the other hand, I might be able to do some clear cut forestry and open pit mining in the middle of it that would make me wealthier and provide jobs for local people, removing poverty and in various way benefiting the individuals that, for example, weakmagneto referred to. Which is better? That would depend on which values were most important to you and how that might be balanced against different groups and group identities who might stand to gain or lose from any of the decisions made. For some, the gains and losses might even be judged on the basis of whether they thought they had a say in making the decison, whatever the outcome was.
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby Scott Mayers on December 11th, 2016, 6:09 pm 

I though it odd when sporting teams begun trading players rather than having them from locally selected people. This seems to go against my own preference against 'pride' but the context is fair if the players are uniquely diverse and representative within that local population anyways.

I'm just troubled by a 'pride' that begins to turn people into literal beliefs about us versus them when NOT simply just in light fun. I just watched the first four shows of a new MTV show called, "Sweet Vicious", about a couple girls taking on the world of abuses against the usual women by others. I like the KIND of 'pride' of womanhood there to beat those against them like this. But as to reality external from mere entertainment, I don't approve of the degree that one might reference themselves 'proud feminists' that by mere preferential FAVOR to women, they tend to support acts that derogatorily effect men in an opposing way.

It is such extremes in reality that bother me. And note too that the show I just mentioned is NOT simply about strict attacks against men. One of the episodes so far also dealt with a bullying group of sorority girls against their pledges in an equally biased way. This is appropriate because I believe both men AND women equally create the causes that contribute to these problems.

But 'pride' of anything is not something I support only because it seems like some X-Supremacy if only because it often deals with preferring some other extreme prejudice defined by those initiating the cause out of usually strong bias against them. The 'gay' pride parades, for instance, makes me think of a stereotype of gay men and women who embrace stereotypes. Instead of defeating the problem, like 'stereotyping', it tends to lean towards just strengthening the stereotypes they like but destroy the connected negative ones with it. This is like how we accept INHERITANCE of 'good' or beneficial things but think this is NOT fair to accept the negative INHERITANCES. If Inheritance is the cause of discrimination though, we should either abandon both or embrace them both.
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby zetreque on December 11th, 2016, 7:53 pm 

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses, like the other factors you bring up weakmagneto.

Forest, I agree for the most part. The only thing was that I think you misunderstood the OP about throwing trash on the ground of your own yard. You do however bring up a more detailed thought about individual and cultural take on land. One owner might think throwing trash on their own property is not bad while another might find it ugly. One owner might not think an open pit mine on their land was ugly while another would die at the thought.

Scott Mayers: I was trying to understand your first post but the idea of owning and renting becomes blurred to me in what you wrote and just seemed to match what I intended to say about renting vs owning. It also supports the exceptions I was thinking about. Your last post is something I really agree with. I have never liked national pride and one reason I don't like or support the Olympic Games. I'd like to see us move away from national pride, and if there is to be a sense of pride, have it about living on a beautiful, clean, well functioning planet.

That is my aim for this discussion and several factors have been brought up about why this isn't so straight forward. The reason I first started thinking about this is because where I live, people take a great deal of pride in the location. A large percentage of bumper stickers and license plates where I live are all about keeping the place clean (not polluted). I also live in a world destination tourist place so I see all the t-shirts and merchandise that visitors take away with them. Whenever I go on vacation, I am happy to come home because it feels like I am going on vacation from vacation. This is the feeling that I am curious about how to embody in people everywhere. Perhaps pride isn't the right word and ownership was just an example of part of this story. If people had a sense of love for where they live on the small scale and globally, then they would treat it better. I'm more just rambling now, but that might help express what I am talking about.

I think Serpent was on the right track about being involved and feeling like your voice matters. Going from just being a lonely nothing in the world to having a sense of control and being a part of the world. With that there would be a sense of pride or love of the world you live in. A broader sense of enjoyment being part of a human race that is doing amazing things within the universe rather than part of a human race that is full of greed, and ego arrogantly putting itself separate from the universe.
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby Forest_Dump on December 11th, 2016, 9:18 pm 

zetreque wrote:Forest, I agree for the most part. The only thing was that I think you misunderstood the OP about throwing trash on the ground of your own yard. You do however bring up a more detailed thought about individual and cultural take on land. One owner might think throwing trash on their own property is not bad while another might find it ugly. One owner might not think an open pit mine on their land was ugly while another would die at the thought.


Indeed and some of that was somewhat prompted by intense debates I remember by, on the one hand, people who liked well-maintained green lawns like putting greens vs. those who prefer wildflowers (like me) or don't like the spraying of chemicals, use of fertilizer, etc. But there is more. I recall an ethnographic study of people who had trash and garbage outside the house as a kind of implicit ethnic marker while the inside was spotless. But it also goes to other values such as balancing the message to the neighbours vs. spending time on other things. It really all does go to value judgements on what you value which can have immediate and explicit causes (some of which weakmagneto pointed out) or much deeper roots. People with a deep-set history of sedentary life and valuing property do look at some of these things differently (and their kids may rebel against some of that for their own reasons) while people with more recent connections to mobility, etc., may not see quite the same value in owning property because their historic traditions puts more value in forging ties with people.
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby zetreque on December 11th, 2016, 9:31 pm 

Forest_Dump » Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:18 pm wrote:
zetreque wrote:Forest, I agree for the most part. The only thing was that I think you misunderstood the OP about throwing trash on the ground of your own yard. You do however bring up a more detailed thought about individual and cultural take on land. One owner might think throwing trash on their own property is not bad while another might find it ugly. One owner might not think an open pit mine on their land was ugly while another would die at the thought.


Indeed and some of that was somewhat prompted by intense debates I remember by, on the one hand, people who liked well-maintained green lawns like putting greens vs. those who prefer wildflowers (like me) or don't like the spraying of chemicals, use of fertilizer, etc. But there is more. I recall an ethnographic study of people who had trash and garbage outside the house as a kind of implicit ethnic marker while the inside was spotless. But it also goes to other values such as balancing the message to the neighbours vs. spending time on other things. It really all does go to value judgements on what you value which can have immediate and explicit causes (some of which weakmagneto pointed out) or much deeper roots. People with a deep-set history of sedentary life and valuing property do look at some of these things differently (and their kids may rebel against some of that for their own reasons) while people with more recent connections to mobility, etc., may not see quite the same value in owning property because their historic traditions puts more value in forging ties with people.


I think we can set all that aside for this topic however because those things are personal preference. For the purpose of this topic it's more about actions which harm.

Trash for example might not be harmful on someone's property unless it decomposes and you end up with toxins in the soil, or it blows to other properties or it affects wildlife.

Chemicals and fertilizers can be harmful in waterways and wildlife.

When it comes to personal preference visually and audible those are other factors. If someone has a neon pink house for example. A case could be made that it detracts from the value of others homes if it harmful to tourism. Sound not only impacts wildlife but also goes through walls and the air affecting others.

Bringing this back on topic, it's more about protecting society by having a sense of pride in the health of our surroundings.
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby vivian maxine on December 12th, 2016, 7:38 am 

zetreque wrote: I have never liked national pride


I'm not picking on you, zetreque. It is just that you happened to be the "10.000th" person I have heard say this in one way or another. I hope that, some day before I leave this vale of tears, someone will explain to me, the objection to national pride. I truly do not understand.
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby Serpent on December 12th, 2016, 11:27 am 

vivian maxine » December 12th, 2016, 6:38 am wrote:
zetreque wrote: I have never liked national pride


I'm not picking on you, zetreque. It is just that you happened to be the "10.000th" person I have heard say this in one way or another. I hope that, some day before I leave this vale of tears, someone will explain to me, the objection to national pride. I truly do not understand.


There are several different interpretations of 'pride'.
You have to admire natives and gays and women for standing up against their traditional oppressors, owning their identity and showing solidarity. That kind of pride is an open, defiant rejection of the self-loathing that second-class citizens had been trained to feel. That systemic low self-esteem is so very difficult to shake off, it needs a strong antidote.
On the other hand, when the traditional oppressors start demonstrating pride and solidarity, you have to be afraid. It can only mean they want their victims back under their thumbs.

Nationalism comes in the form of revolutions, independence movements against foreign domination - and also in the form of conquest: two sides of imperialism. There are still English people whose idea of British pride is reclaiming the colonies. There are still - or again? - Germans who.... You get the picture.
Because it can so quickly, insidiously grow into something malignant is why some of us are wary of group pride in any form.
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby vivian maxine on December 12th, 2016, 11:42 am 

Serpent » December 12th, 2016, 10:27 am wrote:
vivian maxine » December 12th, 2016, 6:38 am wrote:
zetreque wrote: I have never liked national pride


I'm not picking on you, zetreque. It is just that you happened to be the "10.000th" person I have heard say this in one way or another. I hope that, some day before I leave this vale of tears, someone will explain to me, the objection to national pride. I truly do not understand.


There are several different interpretations of 'pride'.
You have to admire natives and gays and women for standing up against their traditional oppressors, owning their identity and showing solidarity. That kind of pride is an open, defiant rejection of the self-loathing that second-class citizens had been trained to feel. That systemic low self-esteem is so very difficult to shake off, it needs a strong antidote.
On the other hand, when the traditional oppressors start demonstrating pride and solidarity, you have to be afraid. It can only mean they want their victims back under their thumbs.

Nationalism comes in the form of revolutions, independence movements against foreign domination - and also in the form of conquest: two sides of imperialism. There are still English people whose idea of British pride is reclaiming the colonies. There are still - or again? - Germans who.... You get the picture.
Because it can so quickly, insidiously grow into something malignant is why some of us are wary of group pride in any form.



Thank you, zetreque. A friend just explained it to me. So, what it really boils down to is that "they" have changed the meaning of "nationalism". I wasn't questioning the word "pride" so much as the combination of the two words- national pride (pride in one's own country). Today, it's something else..

Know what we need? We need a dictionary that defines words whose definitions have changed - especially when it's a drastic change. In fact, I am getting curious as to how definitions change. Interesting. Best not to start on examples.
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby NoShips on December 12th, 2016, 11:50 am 

vivian maxine » Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:42 am wrote:
Know what we need? We need a dictionary that defines words whose definitions have changed - especially when it's a drastic change. In fact, I am getting curious as to how definitions change. Interesting. Best not to start on examples.



Way off topic (sorry!), but something I'd like to probe somewhere else (coz I don't understand it well myself).

I suppose a definition might change because we learn more about something, e.g., the definition of "water" these days is (supposedly) analytically defined as "H2O". The meaning of the term "water" has not changed, on this view, it was water all along; we just got wiser.

Or a definition might change because the meaning of the term has changed. "Silly" for Shakespeare does not mean what it means to us.

All very confusing, and the locals grabbed all the lifebelts.
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby Serpent on December 12th, 2016, 11:53 am 

So, what it really boils down to is that "they" have changed the meaning of "nationalism". I wasn't questioning the word "pride" so much as the combination of the two words- national pride (pride in one's own country). Today, it's something else..


No, it's not just today, and not just nationalism. The words are okay; it's the human emotions that are difficult to keep within sustainable bounds.

The same thing happens with personal pride.
You can say a young man or woman takes pride in their appearance - meaning they wash and comb and brush and tidy. But it doesn't take much to slide over into vanity: preening and self-decoration, spending a fortune on beauty products nobody really needs. Or on the other side, into anxiety: worry about how other people judge one's clothing or hairstyle or the bleachedness of one's teeth. On either side, into obsessive mirror-gazing.
You can say that someone has high self-esteem: is confident of their accomplishment or knowledge. But how easily it can go over the top into arrogance. You can say somebody takes pride in their leadership ability, authority. But what stops them short of despotism?
We humans have a tendency to overdo everything.
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby vivian maxine on December 12th, 2016, 12:31 pm 

There is a fine line that is hard to deal with but, as NoShips said, too far off topic. Might make a good discussion on its own, maybe?
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby NoShips on December 12th, 2016, 12:35 pm 

Maybe? You can count on it.
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby zetreque on December 12th, 2016, 1:17 pm 

I've always said humans go to extremes for everything. I find national pride distasteful because it promotes the attitude that the group is better than another group. Hence we have the Olympics... Who is the best. If a country wins a certain medal then some in that country will project that they are better than another country even though it was an individual that won. Same with sports teams and all the emotions that go flying when "their" team loses or wins. All that is very distasteful to me. I like to think of people and groups as different rather than better or worse than others. In this day in age, we are all in this together and connected in ecological and earth science ways. National pride is an attitude that I think is out dated.

As for how definitions change over time. That's one part of it. It's what makes communication often so difficult. Two people can be agreeing but arguing at the same time simply because they are interpreting words differently.
I guess the simplest example I can think of is someone on the east coast growing up knowing pine cones to be these tiny little objects, and someone on the west coast knowing pine cones being something that can get up to 15 inches long. If those two people got together online and one person said pine cone in trying to explain what their ball of yarn looks like, a completely different version will come up in the other's head. Definitions might not change, but a person's interpretation will across individuals and culture.

Then to relate that to previous thought. It's not that the west coast pine cones are better than the east coast. Why should we be proud to have a certain size pine cone? They are different. They function differently to thrive in their location. That's what humans must realize. We should be proud to have an earth that functions so that we can thrive as a whole. We have overgrown this planet and it's about time to realize that we need a broader sense of pride so that we can respect one another and all the differences in the world that support our existence here and that path that lead to our existence.
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby vivian maxine on December 12th, 2016, 3:11 pm 

Humans love competition. Part of our breeding. Spelling bees in third grade? In fact, if you think of it, just giving grades on report cards does it. Still - it spurs us to do better "next time" And we certainly want to do better.

Pine cones? We have that problem with crawdads and crayfish. :-)
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby weakmagneto on December 12th, 2016, 4:35 pm 

We should be proud to have an earth that functions so that we can thrive as a whole. We have overgrown this planet and it's about time to realize that we need a broader sense of pride so that we can respect one another and all the differences in the world that support our existence here and that path that lead to our existence.
Zetreque

I certainly echo your sentiments. If you look at the most commonly traded commodities in the world, you can definitely see a pattern of how the economic arm of the world embraces industries that exploit or harm the environment. These reflect the values of the global consumer. Until we support new industries and communities that aim to protect or maintain our environment and change our spending habits, nothing will change. The change needs to start with us first and foremost.
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby zetreque on December 12th, 2016, 4:52 pm 

weakmagneto » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:35 pm wrote:
We should be proud to have an earth that functions so that we can thrive as a whole. We have overgrown this planet and it's about time to realize that we need a broader sense of pride so that we can respect one another and all the differences in the world that support our existence here and that path that lead to our existence.
Zetreque

I certainly echo your sentiments. If you look at the most commonly traded commodities in the world, you can definitely see a pattern of how the economic arm of the world embraces industries that exploit or harm the environment. These reflect the values of the global consumer. Until we support new industries and communities that aim to protect or maintain our environment and change our spending habits, nothing will change. The change needs to start with us first and foremost.


Which is why I sent off a letter to the college president here last Friday suggesting they incorporate divestment into an alternative economics class to teach consumers the power of where and how they spend or invest their money. :) It is because this social change needs to come from the bottom up.
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby Serpent on December 12th, 2016, 6:37 pm 

Now that is a good idea!
While generally constructive and socially responsible, it would also give young people a sense of ownership: something they can control; something they can protect and preserve by the choices they make. And that, in turn, would engender a new kind of pride.
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Re: Pride and Ownership

Postby Scott Mayers on December 13th, 2016, 9:36 am 

If it helps, I have thought of this a lot before and speak up on this within politics often.

I interpret "pride" when it is used within politics to make LAWS, a form of forced nationalistic ideals. But "national", is a word used differently but relates IN their different meanings. The root is "nature". And it is when or where one assumes someone's particular "nature" to be significantly ABOVE others that is the problem. So, for politics, I don't approve of laws being MADE to grant the "nature" of people based on natural inherent factors.

So, when I'm discussing this in politics, I define anything "nationalistic" as the belief in MAKING LAWS that favor one or more people UNIQUELY based on ETHNIC (genetics + culture) grounds. That one, for instance, should "own" a privileged unique right within the same system of government based on these biases some group of people ALWAYS at the expense of another by imposing laws that favor inherent 'rights' to some BEHAVIOR not related ONLY to the physical nature we are all prone to.

"Patriotism" is a form of nationalism BUT not NECESSARILY bad when it treats all within its domain EQUAL and NOT bound by those cultural laws. To me, Multiculturalism (TM) is a form of multi-Nationalism but does NOT favor ALL groups, just specific ones. A Mono-culturalism is one that is more specifically Nationalistic to ONE ethnicity. Then the "Melting Pot" is a form of "Interculturalism" that only makes laws that allow people to VOLUNTARILY segregate but have no special privilege in laws.

I still don't favor 'pride' when it is of the forms that act to favor one's genetic AND cultural links as though someone merely born of some gene OWNS a voluntary behavior. But when they are imposed in law and biases one group of people even negligently (or what is 'absent' in laws by bias), this is a form of Nationalism that I don't like.

Technically, all forms of Nationalism of the political variety are often about favoring (or disfavoring) some social factor, like culture, religion, etc, to or against some population coinciding with their genetics. So even 'feminism' or 'masculism' can be this IF LAWS are used to specifically favor, disfavor, or leave out one sex or the other NOT BASED ON THEIR NORMAL PHYSICAL 'natures' but an assumption that some such genetic class "OWNS" a kind of behavior that is merely arbitrary to their particular sex, race, etc.

This is what I believe creates problems. A law that favors one because they are 'poor' or 'rich' as a class that don't favor some group or other BASED on cultural prejudices is NOT a political "Nationalism" (National Socialism). But there is a fine line of distinction. Today, the U.S. and my country, Canada, both have a rise in this political Nationalism on BOTH extremes of the Conservative/Progressive dimensions. To the Conservatives, if they are of one genetic group favored in law, as in Israel's Zionist state to preserve (conserve) Jewish genetic and cultural links (Ethnicity), it is a MONO-cultural form and tends to be more extreme then the Progressive types. A 'progressive' form of this is Multiculturalism (TM). I have to add the trademark identifier because the average person literally doesn't know that this is NOT a political word that actually means favoring ALL people equally through voluntary right. Rather, it is just a select set of multiple groups that have co-agreed they have some specific 'official' rights to segregate laws for these 'official' groups. So here in Canada, we recognize 'Catholic' English (Anglican) and French Roman (traditional catholics) PLUS the collection of Aboriginal/Indigenous populations called, "First Nations Peoples". Others are allowed provisionally but do not have the same extended rights to have specific laws that favor others.

The U.S. Conservatives exist within both parties and why the recent election problems. Those who would normally favor one side or the other based on the 'conservative/progressive' 'social liberty, social conservative', etc, are being pulled by particular favors of Nationalisms of each that unless you belong to, laws are biased against you to stay. So, for instance, white disenfranchised males who are non-nationalistic but see the trend of the liberal camps preferring laws that penalize them by virtue of what they are NOT privileged to in special laws by an assumption based on their 'white male' status, feel forced to either not vote or join up with the side that at least will not penalize them for those Nationalists there that would leave them be. And vice versa. Because the Nationalists of the 'right' are less favoring of those lately who might like the conservative politics there will vote 'left' if the degree of bias of those ethnicities, races, or sex, will least harm you for it.

So this is where I see the problem everywhere.

But the OP here was specifically meaning 'pride' of an ownership to property. So this is may be more favored in right-wing politics but is not about the ethnicity factor.
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