Jordan Peterson (branch from BPD thread)

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Jordan Peterson (branch from BPD thread)

Postby Brent696 on November 15th, 2018, 11:12 pm 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNQQIRKLPHs

Above, in this 7 minute video, Jordan Peterson, a clinical psychologist and Professor, addresses BPD.

Midway through the video he pauses as he visualizes what he is about to say, then states how BPD reflects a disassociation between IQ and conscientiousness, in this I feel he using the word "conscientiousness" to refer basically to the emotional body. Later he brings this forward as he refers to the temper tantrum capacity of BPDs. He also segues into the social aspects of those BPD being compromised.

So he does address these three aspects or personality, emotional, social, and intellect. But he seems to go farther as he speaks of zero correlation between the intellect and the ability to act, which I would consider the emotional WILL. Ultimately in his analysis one can see a very strong Compartmentalization between the emotion and intellect where the emotional, like a 2 year old in his words, remains in control of the personality, even to their own detriment, with the obvious implication that this effects the social functions of the personality.

In mentioning a causal foundation he references a neglect of socialization between 2 and 4, but he merely throws this out as a possibility while maintaining that they (psychologists), really don't know. He also offers Dialectic Behavioral Therapy as the best tool for BPD to deal with their condition. Dialectic Behavioral Therapy utilizes four modules,

Mindfulness: the practice of being fully aware and present in this one moment
Distress Tolerance: how to tolerate pain in difficult situations, not change it
Interpersonal Effectiveness: how to ask for what you want and say no while maintaining self-respect and relationships with others
Emotion Regulation: how to change emotions that you want to change


One might see mirrored in these modules the same efforts one finds in programs like AA. Setting aside the alcohol is merely a preliminary step, ultimately the addict must learn to grow up, to be accountable, to be conscientious, as emotional immaturity is recognized as a root factor in the addiction. And it is not like many addicts don't understand intellectually that they are addicts, but there is, at the bottom of addiction just as with BPD, a separation between the emotional body and the intellectual body.

BUT, this is in terms of degrees, as with the psychiatrists I've worked with or the STEM community of which Wolfhnd speaks, degrees of separation can still exist. A person in the scientific field might be better socialized, intellectual efficient, yet still be stunted emotionally. They may know better than to throw tantrums at work as their image and job remain important to them, but that does not mean they don't express this emotional deficit upon their spouse or children or in any number of passive aggressive ways, even towards peers. BPD diagnosis just seems to cover those who are the least controlled in society, just as there are both functioning and non-functional alcoholics.
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Re: Borderline Personality Disorder

Postby wolfhnd on November 16th, 2018, 12:30 am 

I have a case of Peterson overdose. I liked his lectures before anyone knew who he was. Now I have simply listened to him more than I can stand. Nothing against him but I just need a new face.
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Re: Borderline Personality Disorder

Postby Brent696 on November 16th, 2018, 12:45 am 

I get it but unlike so many others, he actually is a psychologist. Additionally he was fairly succinct on this point.
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Re: Borderline Personality Disorder

Postby BadgerJelly on November 16th, 2018, 3:57 am 

wolfhnd » November 16th, 2018, 12:30 pm wrote:I have a case of Peterson overdose. I liked his lectures before anyone knew who he was. Now I have simply listened to him more than I can stand. Nothing against him but I just need a new face.


It does sometimes worry me that people will listen to him and then ignkre his suggestions on what to read. I stumbled across him just before the whole bill C yaddayadda thing because I’m really interested in Jung and had already read quite a bit. I used his Lion King thing to help people grasp at the whole Jungian Archetype thing.

If you’re into lectures then you should really take a look at Sapolsky. He is by far the most entertaining and informative lecturer I’ve seen. Reallly engaging, moves through different aspects of his subject at a very good pace and brings to light some intriguing pieces of scientific research.

There is also Damasio’s lectures. They are a little more dumbed down, but they’re good enough to go through even if you’ve got a reasonable understanding of his work.

For me the interest in Peterson is more about my interest in how he’ll open up more serious study of Jung’s work and his ideas. It could end up mkaing Jung even less appealing though, but I doubt it.

Sadly a lot of the people I am most interested in died before the advent of videoed lectures. I have found many of the lectures recorded at Edinburgh Uni to be very stimulating - give that a go. I especially remember one about genetic engineering and livestock. Really interesting stuff.
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Re: Borderline Personality Disorder

Postby davidm on November 16th, 2018, 1:16 pm 

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Re: Borderline Personality Disorder

Postby TheVat on November 16th, 2018, 1:41 pm 

It would be helpful if pundits like Peterson, when they step away from their actual areas of expertise, issue clear disclaimers on how their knowledge and insight may be limited. While I agree with him that some aspects of political correctness have been ridiculous, or suppressive of a free and open dialog, I find that he often offers opinions on matters like women's rights where he seems unaware of what many women around the world have to deal with on a regular basis. This demonstrates the obvious, even someone with a doctorate in psychology is capable of missing things. His "identity politics" screeds also seem to stray beyond his knowledge. I don't think anyone expects that an older white Canadian male, residing in what is arguably the nicest country in the world*, will be an expert on what oppression feels like or understand that a lot of "identity politics" is really just a continuation of civil rights movements that seek only equal opportunity and equality before the Law. I do give him credit: he truly strives to see things in an impartial way and scour bigoted attitudes from himself, but those fine intentions are in no way probative of anything. As an American who lived in places where white privilege screamed out its presence from the rooftops, I can only smile and shake my head at how little reality has intruded on his life.


*sorry Scandinavia and Scotland. It was close, really close.
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Re: Borderline Personality Disorder

Postby Brent696 on November 16th, 2018, 2:23 pm 

Despite the politicization of Peterson, to which people work hard creating ad hominem attacks, this does not subtract from his knowledge as a psychologist. The information presented in his video can be found mirrored in any number of psychological publications.

In PZ Myers (video author) attempt to discredit Peterson across the board he makes an unfair contention between Joseph Campbell and Peterson, both Campbell and Peterson are delving into areas of the subconscious mind. Campbell brings the mythology alive as a code that has reflected our subconscious awareness of nature and ourselves, Peterson has done likewise in this brief comment. Nobody in their right mind would think Peterson is actually stating these mythological symbols are actual pictures of DNA, it is simply a fact in many areas, deeper knowledge of the subconscious mind speaks in symbolic representations.

Myers is not only throwing Peterson under the bus, but Campbell, Jung, and any number of brilliant minds throughout history in his ad hominem, political, stigmatization campaign.

If we stick to the issue of BPD, what it is, what possible causes there are for it, how it has possibly become a catchall diagnosis, then any argument against Peterson's views need to utilize dissenting opinions from credible sources as regards the subject of BPD, not his views on symbolic mythology.
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Re: Borderline Personality Disorder

Postby wolfhnd on November 16th, 2018, 8:46 pm 

Sapolsky is a winner, thank you.

I think I'm going to disagree with him on freewill but that's ok.
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Re: Borderline Personality Disorder

Postby BadgerJelly on November 17th, 2018, 4:30 am 

Biv -

He generally does say what his expertise is and mentions what he doesn’t know about. The whole double helix business is likely to do with the myth of Crick taking LSD. In other lectures Peterson does mention this and also mentions the speculative nature of psychology and having an openness to weird ideas.

The race issue has much more weight in the US because the US ... well, you know.

If the aim is to make someone look like an idiot and ignore the sensible parts then so be it. That appears to be how some people operate. Some people want people who say nothing other than what they agree with and those are the kind of people who instantly shut down and assume someone is talking nothing but nonsense simlpy because it is easier for them to dismiss rather than investigate.

If he has a area of expertise it is most certainly in identity politics and totalitarian regimes at both ends of the spectrum. He doesn’t deny so-called “white privilege” but he does, as do I, refuse to put all the ills of the world at the feet of western society.

If Trump turned around tomorrow and said all the officials in the Whitehouse were going to be 50% men and 50% women would you celebrate that? I suspect many would take to the idea and think it a “good” and “fair” idea.

The Peterson business is fizzling out. Give a year or two and no one will really be concerned or pay much attention to the ridiculous drama surrounding identity politics.

Other than him hopefully opening up Jung to people a little (and I’m still a little cautious about some of the references he makes to Jung and whether or not a lot of what he says is meely a dilute version of Jung) there is also the debate about Poltical Correctness where many people perhaps saw Stephen Fry for the first time and saw him outshine everyone on the stage including Peterson.

An important issue in the UK now is how comedy is to be regulated on the internet. The BBC has always been very conservative and tried not to upset people/nations. It goes a little over the top sometimes. Anyone working on TV in the UK will comment about how certain things are censored - nothing new. The issue I see now is that this is trying to be extended to internet videos and some mindblowingly stupid annoucements have bee made by local police services regarding “offensive” speech.

Anyway, I’m optimistic :)

The kind of talk I noted in the OP is what gives the softer sciences a bad name. Maybe the standards in universities have slipped too far and it’ll take some work to get people up to speed? Maybe it’s always been this way. Either way education is more readily available to more people across the globe than ever before. All we need now is a shift in cultural attitudes (in some places) to instill people with - or rather revive - a sense of awe and wonder, to feed the natural instinct of discovery and exploration.
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Re: Borderline Personality Disorder

Postby wolfhnd on November 17th, 2018, 11:01 am 

I think Peterson has made his case pretty well. Personal responsibility not activism is the road to "salvation". When he says the Idenitarian right and Idenitarian left are two sides of the same coin it may not be entirely accurate but does address some disturbing realities. I hear slight echos of eugenics in ideas like BPD and toxic masculinity.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... loset-left
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Re: Borderline Personality Disorder

Postby davidm on November 17th, 2018, 8:42 pm 

wolfhnd » November 17th, 2018, 9:01 am wrote:I think Peterson has made his case pretty well.


You would.
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Re: Borderline Personality Disorder

Postby wolfhnd on November 17th, 2018, 11:53 pm 

I realize we have wondered far afield of a focus on the original topic. Unfortunately the nature nurture issue is relevant. These discussions always have a socio-political dimension as in Gould vs Wilson. That is probably the best reason to stick behavioral science in a nether region between science and philosophy. It's the interplay between cultural evolution and physically evolution that makes psychology bewilderingly complicated. In the same way time and randomness make biological evolution obscure a similar problem exists for cultural evolution something that Peterson is trying to unravel. Although Peterson has some disdain for Dennett I still think a bit of philosophical pragmatism is useful. Some degree of reduction of complexity is necessary. Dennett does these by illustrating that in the cultural world things that aren't real in the traditional scientific sense are real cultural phenomenon that effect the physical world. Freewill is for our purposes here the best example. The unsatisfying but illuminating view that Dennett argues for is that freewill is a real cultural construct that alters physical reality by changing behavior. Freewill isn't real to a neurologist because of a prejudice for a certain definition of real.

I may explain why I think the above is relevant to the above post if I can come up with a semi coherent narrative.
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Re: Jordan Peterson (branch from BPD thread)

Postby hyksos on December 1st, 2018, 3:27 am 

Ahh.... Jordan Peterson content that is not composed of incoherent rants at "feminists" and "marxists" and "marxist feminists". A breath of fresh air.
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