When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 3rd, 2017, 10:09 am 

BadgerJelly » March 3rd, 2017, 1:26 am wrote:I have only read OP and not looked at reference as yet. What I know of this makes me think something is being misrepresented. Within a baby's brain I can see why this may seem to be what is happening. I think though that this is probably more about how the brain quickly starts to establish a physical map of the environment rather than "flipping" vision. If adult humans wear goggles that make the world appear opposite their brains (they) adjust to how the data is coming in and change it into something more compatible with our usual experience.

Why do we now see thing "upside down"? If we did wouldn't we call "upside down" the "right way up" and the "right way up" "upside down"?

If there is a physical alteration in the brain that happens to shift our visual perception during development then I would hazard a guess that it is to do with ease of processing somehow? Maybe combined with the development of kinaesthetics ("language" and motion) it is simply a more cost effective way to do things or simply the way the evolutional cookie crumbled?


Thanks for your thoughtful response, Badger
I agree with everything you say here. The "upside-down goggles" you refer to were pioneered by a gentleman name Stratton in the late 1800's. His device mimicked the eye in that lenses "flipped" the world upside down and backwards. In 1950, Erismann & Kohler used mirrors that turned the world upside down only (left and right remained the same) Here is the video of their experiment : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKUVpBJalNQ&t=18s Eventually their brains did adjust - as you will see if you watch it to the end.

I also agree that any alteration in visual perception during development would be due to ease of processing. And that's where the "flipping" may come in.

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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 3rd, 2017, 10:25 am 

dandelion » March 3rd, 2017, 8:34 am wrote:These might help,

"Our results suggest chicks hatch with a predisposition about the direction of gravity and use it to constrain the interpretation of the motion of visual objects. Though more difficult to assess in altricial species, we suspect a similar predisposition is embodied in the architecture of all animal neural systems responding to legged vertebrates, including humans."
http://indico.ictp.it/event/a06215/sess ... al/0/4.pdf
Gravity Bias in the Interpretation of Biological Motion by Inexperienced Chicks

"Newborns were shown to prefer upright compared with inverted biological motion displays."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2206618/
A Predisposition for Biological Motion in the Newborn Baby


Thanks for the response, Dandelion
I do feel strongly that gravity has a lot to do with a baby's visual orientation. We live in an up/down, left/right world and it's all based on "the fall of an apple". But would that be the same for a baby born on the International Space Station in 0G?

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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 5th, 2017, 7:52 am 

Seems like several recent comments and my replies suddenly disappeared.
Either BIG BROTHER is watching and didn't like something I said, or I (or the other individual in the conversation)broke a rule of the FORUM and a moderator removed them.

If that was the case, please let me know what I/we did wrong so that it won't happen again.

Sincerely,
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby neuro on March 5th, 2017, 8:38 am 

I wonder why one should even ask whether a baby sees the world upside-down or not.

First paradox: retinal photoreceptors discharge (are activated) by dark and not by light. Still we feel our eyes are excited by light, and may even suffer if the light is too much. So, what? lack of transmitter = light; transmitter = dark; the neural circuits "knows" how to interpret it. Local circuitry in the retina processes photoreceptor activation and sends to the brain info about whether a point in the retina is illuminated or not, and whether it is more or less illuminated, more or less blue or green/red, than the neighboring ones.

Second paradox: most sensory inputs cross the body mid-line and are elaborated by contra-lateral cortex; most motor commands elaborated and generated by the cortex control contra-lateral muscles. Why so? there is no clear evidence (neither there appears to be any physiological or evolutionary advantage).

BUT:

the fact that the image is projected upside down (actually rotated by 180 degrees) on the retinas and on the occipital pole of the brain makes so that the right hemisphere can process spatial info from the left side of the external environment and elaborate appropriate movements of the muscles of the left part of the body, and vice versa.

Who cares what is the absolute up or down? or the absolute left or right?
The only need is that sensory input (which is spatially oriented) produces appropriate behavioral responses (in their spatial orientation).

As of reading and writing, anybody who has a lateralization problem (which is a COGNITIVE, not a sensory problem) may have problems in learning to read and write, and develop their own strategies for these tasks. Such strategies might be particularly efficient, so that - provided you let them read-write the way they like to do it - they may be as proficient as (or even more proficient than) so-called "normal" readers.

This, however, has nothing to do with the neural connection between retina and cortex, or with local elaboration in the visual cortex, or any set of absolute spatial coordinates.
Second paradox: the image is projected
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 5th, 2017, 10:01 am 

Thanks for your response, Neuro
I ask the question because it is the only explanation I have been able to come up with to explain why so many dyslexic children are able to read and write better upside-down than conventionally.

So you believe it is a cognitive problem.
Would it be safe to say a visual perception problem?

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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 5th, 2017, 10:06 am 

neuro » March 5th, 2017, 8:38 am wrote:
As of reading and writing, anybody who has a lateralization problem (which is a COGNITIVE, not a sensory problem) may have problems in learning to read and write, and develop their own strategies for these tasks. Such strategies might be particularly efficient, so that - provided you let them read-write the way they like to do it - they may be as proficient as (or even more proficient than) so-called "normal" readers.


So are you saying young readers should be encouraged to read "the way they like to do it?

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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 5th, 2017, 10:25 am 

neuro » March 5th, 2017, 8:38 am wrote:
Who cares what is the absolute up or down? or the absolute left or right?
The only need is that sensory input (which is spatially oriented) produces appropriate behavioral responses (in their spatial orientation).



Still re-reading and trying to digest what you're saying here, Neuro

My answer to your question is - the person who is receiving that sensory input - and, if their behavioral responses are inappropriate, the teacher or interventionist who works with him/her.

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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby vivian maxine on March 5th, 2017, 10:43 am 

Teacherman, I'm preaching to the choir, I know, but I'm sure you'll agree that any teacher who tries to force a student to do it his/her way when the way the student has found also works should not be teaching. Children (and some adults) are often coming up with discoveries of something else that works. In my humble opinion, they should be encouraged to carry on until or if they prove themselves wrong.

Because the teacher must teach a method to a group, he/she can only teach it one way. That doesn't mean some students can't see through the method and do some experimenting. And they don't have to be in any way handicapped. Your brighter students - you more creative students - are quite gifted at this sort of thing. Haven't you seen it? I have. It's wonderful to see.
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 5th, 2017, 11:28 am 

Maybe you are not aware of the state of education today, Vivian. I totally agree with everything you are saying here. But this is what happened:
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby neuro on March 5th, 2017, 11:44 am 

teacherman » March 5th, 2017, 3:25 pm wrote:
neuro » March 5th, 2017, 8:38 am wrote:
Who cares what is the absolute up or down? or the absolute left or right?
The only need is that sensory input (which is spatially oriented) produces appropriate behavioral responses (in their spatial orientation).



Still re-reading and trying to digest what you're saying here, Neuro

My answer to your question is - the person who is receiving that sensory input - and, if their behavioral responses are inappropriate, the teacher or interventionist who works with him/her.

Steve

I am sorry, Steve, I should have been more accurate.

Imagine you are an engineer, and you are designing a brain.
Who cares where you map the "absolute" top/bottom up/down in your robot's artificial retina or in its artificial brain?
What is the relevance of a possible rotation, mirroring or whatever other transformation in the wiring and the internal processing, provided that the input (sensory) and output (motor-behavioral) functions are in register?

Caring about the fact that the input-output relation is correct is another story. Sure one cares!
But it has nothing to do with whether the projection of the external image on the retina is upside-up or upside-down.

Sure the teacher cares whether the child has an accurate input-output relation. But, especially when your are talking about reading and writing, this is not a sensory or motor problem.
It is a COGNITIVE problem. The child moves the right hand in the right direction to catch the ball you throw to her, so the problem is not related to internal mapping of the external space and consistently organizing behavior... The problem is in the way she organizes her exploration of a particular object (a written text) to extract cognitive information from it...
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 5th, 2017, 12:00 pm 

Thanks Neuro,
That makes sense. So, as a teacher, what should I do when a child has "a problem with the way she organizes her exploration of ... written text to extract cognitive information"? Do I let her do it the way that's best for her or simply force her to do it the way society says is "correct"?
I hope other members weigh in on this subject. It is incredibly important.

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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby neuro on March 6th, 2017, 3:33 pm 

First of all, I must say that I am not an expert in the field (no practice, just some neurological knowledge of the problem).

You certainly know better than I do that dyslexia may arise from problems in two distinct cognitive fields: either in the grammatical-lexical field or in the semantic field.
We learn to read fast because we simultaneously use two procedures: one is a "shape" recognition of the word, based on semantic context, and the word does not even need to be spelled correctly (it may even be completely scrambled, provided all the letters are there and the first and last ones are correct) for us to interpret it correctly; this is a very fast procedure; the other is recognizing the letters one by one, and we must do this when we encounter an unknown word, or when our semantic guess does not make sense; this is a much slower procedure.
A dyslexic person may have problems in the first procedure, and probably will probably read very slowly and with difficulty in keeping the pace with the semantic interpretation of the sentence, specially in front of long and complex sentences.
Or they may have problems in the second aspect and will probably have a lot of problems in spelling and will probably misspell words in writing.

If the subject has problems in reading/writing in the "right" direction and with the sheet in the usual orientation, it is very likely that the problem is lexical, and not semantic: if she orients the writing or the sheet in her preferred way she might be able to use semantic interpretation of the words and read/write as fast as a non-dyslexic person. In this case, forcing her to write "correctly" and read with the sheet in the "normal" orientation will probably create problems to her by forcing her to use the lexical approach, and using it with an orientation that is not her preferred one. So, as long as what she writes can be read by others, I believe it would be a nonsense to force her to keep the sheet straight and read/write in the "usual" way.

If the problem is semantic, I repeat that I am not an expert, but I do not think that the person will be able to read/write fast enough in whatever orientation, and forcing her to write or orient the sheet in the "normal" way may even worsen the problem, but probably not so much. In this situation the reading/writing is anyway a hard and cumbersome process.

My two cents
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 6th, 2017, 5:15 pm 

neuro » March 6th, 2017, 3:33 pm wrote:First of all, I must say that I am not an expert in the field (no practice, just some neurological knowledge of the problem).

You certainly know better than I do that dyslexia may arise from problems in two distinct cognitive fields: either in the grammatical-lexical field or in the semantic field.
We learn to read fast because we simultaneously use two procedures: one is a "shape" recognition of the word, based on semantic context, and the word does not even need to be spelled correctly (it may even be completely scrambled, provided all the letters are there and the first and last ones are correct) for us to interpret it correctly; this is a very fast procedure; the other is recognizing the letters one by one, and we must do this when we encounter an unknown word, or when our semantic guess does not make sense; this is a much slower procedure.
A dyslexic person may have problems in the first procedure, and probably will probably read very slowly and with difficulty in keeping the pace with the semantic interpretation of the sentence, specially in front of long and complex sentences.
Or they may have problems in the second aspect and will probably have a lot of problems in spelling and will probably misspell words in writing.

If the subject has problems in reading/writing in the "right" direction and with the sheet in the usual orientation, it is very likely that the problem is lexical, and not semantic: if she orients the writing or the sheet in her preferred way she might be able to use semantic interpretation of the words and read/write as fast as a non-dyslexic person. In this case, forcing her to write "correctly" and read with the sheet in the "normal" orientation will probably create problems to her by forcing her to use the lexical approach, and using it with an orientation that is not her preferred one. So, as long as what she writes can be read by others, I believe it would be a nonsense to force her to keep the sheet straight and read/write in the "usual" way.

If the problem is semantic, I repeat that I am not an expert, but I do not think that the person will be able to read/write fast enough in whatever orientation, and forcing her to write or orient the sheet in the "normal" way may even worsen the problem, but probably not so much. In this situation the reading/writing is anyway a hard and cumbersome process.

My two cents


Thanks Neuro,
Your two cents and my two cents could add up to unlimited riches if they reach the right ears. The only thing I might add is that the subject(s) might have problems with both procedures and a host of other problems.

If you really want to be a good teacher you have to be a scientist, a psychiatrist, a health-care worker and a dad/mom..... and more. It's the hardest jb in the world to do right.

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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 7th, 2017, 5:47 pm 

Dave_Oblad » February 26th, 2017, 11:49 pm wrote:Hi Teacherman,

The process of learning to see has nothing to do with the orientation of the retina image. Suppose at birth you could surgically spin both eyes 180 degrees. The image would still be upside down on the retina and thus the orientation of the retinal image relative to the babies head is not relevant. It never "flips" at any stage during development.

Now, if you surgically rotated the eyes much later in life.. then yes.. it would be seeing upside down until it adjusted to the new visual orientation and then flipped (hopefully).

Note: I knew a guy who was heavily cross eyed from birth and asked if he saw two two separate images like I get when I cross my eyes and he said no. He only see's one image like I do.

Regards,
Dave :^)


Hi Dave,
Have you ever heard of Marietta Everette, "The Upside-Down Girl" I have a couple of articles here - one from 1969 and the other from 1990. I find them fascinating. I spoke with her about 5 years ago.....
Here's the one from 1969:
https://books.google.com/books?id=jDgDA ... wn&f=false

And here's the one from 1990
https://books.google.com/books?id=368DA ... 20&f=false
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