Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

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Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby Alan McDougall on June 20th, 2017, 9:58 pm 

With nothing, I mean the non-existence of everything. No emptiness, no, vacuum, no quantum particles, no dimensions, no multiverse, zero energy, no living things, no earth, no milky way, no universe, no laws of nature, no space, no time, no heaven or hell just a total absence or none- the existence of everything.

Squeeze everything that exists in an infinite tiny singularity and then squeeze that final thing out of existence.

.. . ? ? ?

A mind-boggling, brain-, brain-numbing and brain- twisting overwhelming concept, terrifying, frightening, too awful to contemplate and impossible think about, without going insane and totally beyond the understanding of any human genius.

But nevertheless, give it a bash?
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby Dave_Oblad on June 21st, 2017, 2:33 pm 

Hi Alan,

That is what I call the Absolute Void. It is the only condition that can actually exist.. non-existence. No Time or Distance.. absolute nothing that is truly tangible.

So where do we come from? That is the basic question I sought an answer for and found. All other possibilities require additional explanations and usually involve infinite regressions.

We Exist for the same reason the 100th Digit of PI Exists. We Exist within the Solution of a Math/Logic Problem. To be more specific, a 4D Cellular Automaton.

That's how you get something from nothing that is still basically nothing. It is built upon a growing interactive evolving set of Mathematical/Logic/Geometrical Relationships.. and nothing more.

For every possible set of rules, a unique Universe is defined. We are lucky to exist within such a solution with enough complexity for Physics leading to self-aware Life to Evolve.

We take up no real Space or Time. It's all Logic and Relational.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby curiosity on June 21st, 2017, 3:15 pm 

Because no "thing" could come from "nothingness" ever "Total Nothingness" cannot exist

I can only offer the following opinion on the foundations of our reality, because no body really knows the truth.

Quote Einstein. [For those of us who believe in physics, the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.]

Time and space are simple separations which are bound into a continuum by the speed of light. "Using C as a common denominator means distances (Such as a metre) can be given as a time, or Vice Versa."
I don't believe that space or time have any "physicality" and that they can be transformed from one to another in such a way that the speed of light remains a constant for all observers ( "Once you have worked out why, the understanding get easier !!!") Having no physical existence, excuses time from the requirement of needing a "place" to exist but being transformable from itself into space, means it could provide its own environment to exist within.
There is not and can never be absolute nothing, because if there were... "I repeat," no "thing" could come from "nothingness" Ever!

It may not seem like it at first sight, but I'm broadly In agreement with Daves opinion on space/time being a mathematical construct, It is probably better to ask for any clarification from him rather than me, as I believe he is a much better wordsmith than I.

If you like to contemplate Insane physics... I would suggest you give the dynamics behind the metric expansion of space/time a try, it really is a fun place to go! Evaporating black holes are tame in comparison.
Regards,Graham.
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby someguy1 on June 21st, 2017, 6:37 pm 

Alan McDougall » June 20th, 2017, 7:58 pm wrote:But nevertheless, give it a bash?


I prefer csh.
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby DragonFly on June 21st, 2017, 11:03 pm 

Dave_Oblad » June 21st, 2017, 1:33 pm wrote:That is what I call the Absolute Void. It is the only condition that can actually exist.. non-existence. No Time or Distance.. absolute nothing that is truly tangible.


I can take 'Nothing' as a 'Nonexistent Absolute', meaning that it cannot be gotten to. Not even illegals can cross that border.
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby wolfhnd on June 21st, 2017, 11:30 pm 

Does the universe go away when we sleep? At the very least no matter how well trained you are in transcending awareness you cannot be unaware of consciousness.

0 is an abstraction that is not replicated in objective reality as far as we know. It is useful as a thinking tool but contemplating it seems like navel gazing.
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby DragonFly on June 21st, 2017, 11:45 pm 

We can, perhaps, try to show that all is relative/relational, by noting that there can't be anything outside of Totality, such as a clock or a ruler.
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby handmade on June 22nd, 2017, 5:56 pm 

Alan McDougall » June 20th, 2017, 8:58 pm wrote:With nothing, I mean the non-existence of everything. No emptiness, no, vacuum, no quantum particles, no dimensions, no multiverse, zero energy, no living things, no earth, no milky way, no universe, no laws of nature, no space, no time, no heaven or hell just a total absence or none- the existence of everything.

Squeeze everything that exists in an infinite tiny singularity and then squeeze that final thing out of existence.

.. . ? ? ?

A mind-boggling, brain-, brain-numbing and brain- twisting overwhelming concept, terrifying, frightening, too awful to contemplate and impossible think about, without going insane and totally beyond the understanding of any human genius.

But nevertheless, give it a bash?


Well that is an easy one, just consider this to be 0 point space or the adjoining 0 point of dimension.

0³=1

ok?
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby handmade on June 22nd, 2017, 6:08 pm 

curiosity » June 21st, 2017, 2:15 pm wrote:Because no "thing" could come from "nothingness" ever "Total Nothingness" cannot exist


0 dimensions exist between dimensions, zero point energy could manifest from nothing (0 dimensions).
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby edy420 on June 23rd, 2017, 3:39 am 

Imagining nothing exists is easy, but I struggle trying to ignore the existence of a void or no laws of physics.

The laws of physics don't need any matter, to exist.
If the big freeze theory is correct, then we could not observe the laws of light, but that would not mean it does not exist.
There could be a trillion new laws we haven't discovered yet simply because we haven't observed them or perhaps our universe doesn't have the right conditions for them to be observed.

Also, I always thought of the void as absolute nothingness?
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby Alan McDougall on June 23rd, 2017, 11:40 am 

edy420 » June 23rd, 2017, 9:39 am wrote:Imagining nothing exists is easy, but I struggle trying to ignore the existence of a void or no laws of physics.

The laws of physics don't need any matter, to exist.
If the big freeze theory is correct, then we could not observe the laws of light, but that would not mean it does not exist.
There could be a trillion new laws we haven't discovered yet simply because we haven't observed them or perhaps our universe doesn't have the right conditions for them to be observed.

Also, I always thought of the void as absolute nothingness?


Imagining nothing is not easily squeeze everything that exists into an infinitism tiny point and then squeezes that unimaginably time point until it vanished and then?

??? .
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby handmade on June 23rd, 2017, 1:55 pm 


Also, I always thought of the void as absolute nothingness?



A void is made up of lots and lots of 0 point space. Nobody can imagine nothing without always having a surrounding volume of darkness. This darkness is in the mind, the firmament of the mind that needs light to observe something.
Absolute nothing is when you are dead, you will all observe absolute nothing one day .
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby Dave_Oblad on June 23rd, 2017, 2:08 pm 

Hi again,

To imagine a void is quite natural, except most that do so still leave a lot that they don't realize.

Usually they just get rid of the stars, planets, dust.. you know.. all Matter. And maybe they think of getting rid of all energy too.

That still leaves Time..
That still leaves Distance..
That still leaves Dimensions..

So Rid yourselves of those.. and you can't have anything measurable.
Without Time.. there can be no Change.
Without Spatial Volume.. there can be no Stuff.

That's the Absolute Void.

It is the only place that can truly Exist because it contains nothing that needs an explanation.

That is where one must start, if one wants to understand how we Exist.

However, there is one thing that can't be removed, because it has no measurable qualities.

What is it?

It's Mathematical Logic.

PI would still be True.. even if there exists no real Circles.

Can a Universe(s) be built on a foundation of just Mathematical Truths and Logic?

Yes! (but they would be a Virtual Universes)

So I believe we "Exist inside the Solution of an Equation".

Our Existence is purely a Mathematical one. Specifically Logic.. not floating point Math or Numbers.

A typical example would be a Cellular Automaton. A few simple rules can grow into a fully functional Universe, that still doesn't require any of the above listed ingredients that are absent in an Absolute Void.

Note: a Virtual Universe requires no Space or Time, as such becomes defined within such a Constructed solution. It doesn't fill the Absolute Void. That Void is never changed nor can it ever be.

Ok, got to get back to work..

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby DragonFly on June 23rd, 2017, 3:10 pm 

There's no place like 'Nothing'.
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby handmade on June 23rd, 2017, 9:50 pm 

Dave_Oblad » June 23rd, 2017, 1:08 pm wrote:Without Time.. there can be no Change.


Hi Dave, your statement here in my opinion is logically backwards.

Without change there can be no time.

A void would be timeless, there would be no mechanics of timing in a void, which you probably better know as relativity.

Unless there was a change in the void, time could never begin. So therefore your statement must be logically incorrect and the other way around.
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby Dave_Oblad on June 23rd, 2017, 11:13 pm 

Hi Handmade,

I can imagine having Time where nothing ever changes.

But without Time.. there can be no change.

Think of Time as a growing Distance.

Time can grow (get longer) but if that Universe is empty, then size changes but the emptiness doesn't change.

But if the distance doesn't grow then Time has stopped or never started to grow in the first place.

Or imagine an old record player. If the record is blank but spinning, the needle will move from start to finish but play no sound. The record is blank. But if you stopped the record from spinning.. then again there is no sound but the needle never moves anyway. The needle doesn't move over any distance (Time).

Anyway, I'm sure my logic is correct.

Best wishes,
Dave :^)
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby handmade on June 24th, 2017, 7:26 pm 

Dave_Oblad » June 23rd, 2017, 10:13 pm wrote:Hi Handmade,

I can imagine having Time where nothing ever changes.

But without Time.. there can be no change.

Think of Time as a growing Distance.

Time can grow (get longer) but if that Universe is empty, then size changes but the emptiness doesn't change.

But if the distance doesn't grow then Time has stopped or never started to grow in the first place.

Or imagine an old record player. If the record is blank but spinning, the needle will move from start to finish but play no sound. The record is blank. But if you stopped the record from spinning.. then again there is no sound but the needle never moves anyway. The needle doesn't move over any distance (Time).

Anyway, I'm sure my logic is correct.

Best wishes,
Dave :^)



Too you, your logic may seem correct, I do know that most will say the same thing as you and without time there can be no change.
However without change there can be no mechanics of relativity, there would be nothing to time, there would be no timing , timing being the mechanics of relativity.
My logic looks back, if in the beginning there was nothing, regardless how we perceive nothing, time could not start unless there was an event, a change in nothing. So therefore change comes before time, time could of not begun without change, so without change there could be no time, with no change time would be frozen.
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby Dave_Oblad on June 25th, 2017, 8:31 am 

Hi Handmade,

You are embracing Time as how we experience it. An internal view point.

Given an algorithm that produces an internally interactive set of relationships, it has sequence and a beginning. From within the solution to the algorithm, there exists sequence which is Time. Time only Exists within the solution. Outside that solution, Time doesn't Exist.

For example: Imagine 10/3 = 3.33333333... etc.

Does this Math question have a first digit? Yes.. it's a 3.
Does it have sequence? Yes.. it's a never ending series of 3's.
So such a solution had a beginning to its sequenced solution.
Its sequence is Time and as such, had a beginning first value point (the first 3).

How much actual Time does the solution use up? None.. the whole solution is instantaneous.. even if it's an infinite number series.

From this point of View, all other possible Math/Logic Universes would be Instantaneous in Duration. From within one of those Universes, we would appear Instantaneous in Duration.

Again, Time only Exists within the sequence of a Solution. Outside that Solution.. Time doesn't Exist.

Does that help?

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby handmade on June 25th, 2017, 9:39 am 

Dave_Oblad » June 25th, 2017, 7:31 am wrote:Hi Handmade,

You are embracing Time as how we experience it. An internal view point.

Given an algorithm that produces an internally interactive set of relationships, it has sequence and a beginning. From within the solution to the algorithm, there exists sequence which is Time. Time only Exists within the solution. Outside that solution, Time doesn't Exist.

For example: Imagine 10/3 = 3.33333333... etc.

Does this Math question have a first digit? Yes.. it's a 3.
Does it have sequence? Yes.. it's a never ending series of 3's.
So such a solution had a beginning to its sequenced solution.
Its sequence is Time and as such, had a beginning first value point (the first 3).

How much actual Time does the solution use up? None.. the whole solution is instantaneous.. even if it's an infinite number series.

From this point of View, all other possible Math/Logic Universes would be Instantaneous in Duration. From within one of those Universes, we would appear Instantaneous in Duration.

Again, Time only Exists within the sequence of a Solution. Outside that Solution.. Time doesn't Exist.

Does that help?

Regards,
Dave :^)


Time only exists if substance exists, for substance to exist the event of creation of substance comes before time. You cant have time without a substance. In example imagine a 0 point space, time for that space is timeless , a star is born in that space(0 point energy), time has begun in that space.
On second thoughts, time and substance begins at the same ''time'' of the creation of substance.

Does that help?

regards
Steve
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby Dave_Oblad on June 26th, 2017, 5:47 am 

Hi Handmade,

Can you give me a precise definition of a substance? Can you describe it in detail? Suppose you could shrink to any scale, what would the smallest substance look like, or feel like, assuming light doesn't work at such small scales.

If we go down to the Quantum Foam and study Virtual Particles.. do they have a shape? Are they soft and spongy or perhaps porous? What are Virtual Particles made of?

Having thought such to myself, I realized such particles can not be made of any real substance.

This holds true all the way up the Scale. At no point is a real substance ever tangible. All that one would find is Relationships, Geometry in Connections and Frequencies in those Relationships. Never anything truly solid.

For example, in a 3D Video Game, a door blocks your path. Is that door composed of any type of real substance? Or is that door just a Mathematical Construct?

Or.. if there are Guards guarding your door and you (the external player) paused the game. Would the Guards sense their world has been paused? What literally have you done to their world.. when you pause the game?

If there was a God and he Paused our Universe, say to take a vacation from all the stupid prayers, would we sense how long God Paused our Universe? Minutes, Hours or a Millennia? When God takes us off pause, would we have felt, or sensed, any disruption in the flow of Time?

What in your mind is "Time" exactly?

Best wishes,
Dave :^)
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby handmade on June 26th, 2017, 3:02 pm 

Dave_Oblad » June 26th, 2017, 4:47 am wrote:Hi Handmade,

Can you give me a precise definition of a substance? Can you describe it in detail? Suppose you could shrink to any scale, what would the smallest substance look like, or feel like, assuming light doesn't work at such small scales.


Substance I am using in a general manner, I am not perfect so may use words that offer ambiguity. Yes I would indeed class EMR also as a substance, but then saying a substance reacting with a substance would not explain what we was discussing.
I suppose I would personally define substance, that which has permitivity and permeability properties.
The smallest substance would look like a BH, however slightly bigger than a zero point, mathematically 0³ but I understand that is hard to understand.

If we go down to the Quantum Foam and study Virtual Particles.. do they have a shape? Are they soft and spongy or perhaps porous? What are Virtual Particles made of?


Well virtual means it does not exist to begin with, but I do understand why you use the word virtual so will use it also. The virtual particles are spongy with a hollow center. They are made of spacial fields and radiation. (I have my reasons for thinking this).


Having thought such to myself, I realized such particles can not be made of any real substance.

This holds true all the way up the Scale. At no point is a real substance ever tangible. All that one would find is Relationships, Geometry in Connections and Frequencies in those Relationships. Never anything truly solid.

For example, in a 3D Video Game, a door blocks your path. Is that door composed of any type of real substance? Or is that door just a Mathematical Construct?


The door is a mathematical construct, however the pixels on the screen are real. I too have considered particles to be virtual and not ever of solidity, but then I surpassed that thought by continuation of the thoughts and extending them deeper using logic and knowledge of what we do know to determine the probability of accuracy in my thinking.
My thinking would completely change the way we perceive the Universe, it looks at atoms in a different context by looking at energies, polarities and fields , the entirety of entropy of an independent system.


If there was a God and he Paused our Universe, say to take a vacation from all the stupid prayers, would we sense how long God Paused our Universe? Minutes, Hours or a Millennia? When God takes us off pause, would we have felt, or sensed, any disruption in the flow of Time?

What in your mind is "Time" exactly?



Best wishes,
Dave :^)

If there was some form of ''God'' and ''it'' paused our Universe, we would never be able to notice that it had stopped, when we was un-paused we would go on from the ''time'' it stopped continuing from that frame as normal.

Time is absolute and relative. We are timing our very own existence relative to time . Time is the unchanging state of space itself, it remains a 0 constant and absolute. Then relativity itself is the mechanics of timing, timing rates of change relative to 0, the relative stationary unchanging constant of space itself.
We do not observe changes of space itself, we observe change relative to space, if it were not for this we would never notice change ever because there would be no 0 starting point.

regards
steve
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby socrat44 on February 19th, 2018, 10:12 am 

Alan McDougall » June 20th, 2017, 9:58 pm wrote:With nothing, I mean the non-existence of everything.
No emptiness, no, vacuum, no quantum particles, no dimensions, no multiverse,
zero energy, no living things, no earth, no milky way, no universe,
no laws of nature, no space, no time, no heaven or hell
just a total absence or none- the existence of everything.


@ Alan McDougall
If your definitions of absolute nothingness is right
your post would not appear.
===========
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby Eodnhoj7 on March 12th, 2018, 12:14 pm 

Alan McDougall » June 20th, 2017, 9:58 pm wrote:With nothing, I mean the non-existence of everything. No emptiness, no, vacuum, no quantum particles, no dimensions, no multiverse, zero energy, no living things, no earth, no milky way, no universe, no laws of nature, no space, no time, no heaven or hell just a total absence or none- the existence of everything.

Squeeze everything that exists in an infinite tiny singularity and then squeeze that final thing out of existence.

.. . ? ? ?

A mind-boggling, brain-, brain-numbing and brain- twisting overwhelming concept, terrifying, frightening, too awful to contemplate and impossible think about, without going insane and totally beyond the understanding of any human genius.

But nevertheless, give it a bash?


Absence can only be viewed relative to existence as the gradation of existence hence what we understand of as void, or 0d point space, is inseparable from observing the relation of parts. We can observe this in the fact that the 0d point, even on a graph, can only be observe through the relation of 1d lines.
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Re: Try to contemplate absolute nothingness?

Postby Event Horizon on March 12th, 2018, 12:35 pm 

You can't have non existence non-existing, non existence at least technically exists or can exist. Paradoxically, that would mean there was only one possible state..existence. This may have caused the conditions for the universe to explode into being. I guess you need existence to validate non-existence which would otherwise have no references and no dimensions.
Just conjecture.
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