Is Perspective Reality?

Not quite philosophy discussions, debates, various thought experiments and other topics of interest.

Is Perspective Reality?

Postby Mr. Focus on July 18th, 2009, 9:16 am 

So is perspective reality? Just because we perceive something does it make it true? Does it make it exist? Is perspective our only means of comprehension? Or is this perspective like horse blinkers that limits our vision?

My thoughts on the subject is that perspective is merely to tool in which we take in and perhaps dish out information. But perspective is only a means to an end. That logic and intelligence allows the individual to step back from his or her perspective and make decisions based upon more educated standpoint.

That if perspective were reality then we could change our perspective and reality around us would change. This is most obviously not the case. For let us say that I could trick my mind into perceiving via sights, via sound and feeling that I were flying. Would I actually be flying? Is that not the case with video games? To change the perspective of the player into a virtual reality? Perhaps a majority of individuals rely solely on a perspective reality? Is there a way to get in touch with the "real" Reality?

As I side note: To me, the word perspective includes the 5 physical senses, the memory of all interactions, conscious and subconscious, as well as any generic or "inbred" qualities, traits, and/or desires.

I look forward to your response, that it be unlimited by perspective.

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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby chaoticcomplexity on July 18th, 2009, 6:31 pm 

Mr. Focus wrote:So is perspective reality? Just because we perceive something does it make it true? Does it make it exist? Is perspective our only means of comprehension? Or is this perspective like horse blinkers that limits our vision?



I would like to add more questions upon these questions. Before we can answer these questions, I think we need to have an understanding of what is reality, truth, existence, and comprehension. Aren't these partly a result of our perspective as much as these giving rise to our perspectives?
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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby Mr. Focus on July 19th, 2009, 11:01 am 

If you could make a logical argument, that our perspectives have any influence upon the Universal Perspective (god) then I would be all ears.

I would argue that only when our perspective aligns with the universal perspective can god act, threw us.

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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby chaoticcomplexity on July 20th, 2009, 3:01 am 

Is experience necessarily logical? Do you think your existence in this universe is logical?

How do you see, hear, smell? How do you experience actually? Do you think you experience what is "actually out there"? Do you think that the greenness of a green leaf is an intrinsic property of the leaf?
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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby nameless on July 20th, 2009, 6:50 pm 

Mr. Focus wrote:So is perspective reality? Just because we perceive something does it make it true? Does it make it exist? Is perspective our only means of comprehension?

Yes.

Or is this perspective like horse blinkers that limits our vision?

All Perspectives are inherently limited in scope, definitionally.

That if perspective were reality then we could change our perspective and reality around us would change. This is most obviously not the case.

Au contraire Mr. Focus!
Do you not perceive a different and unique 'reality' every moment?
(Can you step into the same river twice?)
Every moment you are a different Conscious Perspective (same Consciousness, different Perspectives) perceiving a different (feature of the) 'complete Universe'.
(No two people ever see the same rainbow!)

Perhaps a majority of individuals rely solely on a perspective reality? Is there a way to get in touch with the "real" Reality?

The only evidence seems to point to Perspective as the 'real' (but incomplete) reality.
That all Perspectives are a 'feature' of the complete Universe.

As I side note: To me, the word perspective includes the 5 physical senses, the memory of all interactions, conscious and subconscious, as well as any generic or "inbred" qualities, traits, and/or desires.

As a side note: To me, the word perspective includes all the definitions in the various dictionaries, and a bit more.

I look forward to your response, that it be unlimited by perspective.

Without perspective, context, there can not be any response. Existence is contextual; everything exists in it's context. All Perspectives (in context) are valid features of Reality/the Universe.
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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby Mr. Focus on July 20th, 2009, 7:51 pm 

chaoticcomplexity wrote:Is experience necessarily logical? Do you think your existence in this universe is logical?


YES and YES.

chaoticcomplexity wrote:Do you think that the greenness of a green leaf is an intrinsic property of the leaf?


Science, Philosophy, and Religion say... YES!

nameless wrote:Au contraire Mr. Focus!
Do you not perceive a different and unique 'reality' every moment?
(Can you step into the same river twice?)
Every moment you are a different Conscious Perspective (same Consciousness, different Perspectives) perceiving a different (feature of the) 'complete Universe'.
(No two people ever see the same rainbow!)


There is no doubt that we experience a new stream every time. But the question I was asking was not rather we experience new experiences. I was asking rather we define those experiences by our perspectives. Or rather those experiences define us. Or perhaps a little of both.

Also. The point I was making, was unless I do in fact possess physic powers. What I perceive does not change reality.

And the point I was making was that if what I perceived was reality, then why can't I change what I perceive and in turn change reality.

While you may argue that reality changes in reference to the individual. As is the case of extreme schizophrenia I would argue still that it is the general census that these individuals do not infact change the definite laws of reality.

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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby nameless on July 21st, 2009, 2:16 am 

Mr. Focus wrote:
nameless wrote:Au contraire Mr. Focus!
Do you not perceive a different and unique 'reality' every moment?
(Can you step into the same river twice?)
Every moment you are a different Conscious Perspective (same Consciousness, different Perspectives) perceiving a different (feature of the) 'complete Universe'.
(No two people ever see the same rainbow!)

There is no doubt that we experience a new stream every time.

Stream?

But the question I was asking was not rather we experience new experiences. I was asking rather we define those experiences by our perspectives.

We are Perspectives that are as perceived. We 'define' direct perception with 'thought'. 'Thought' is directly perceived, also. All definition is perspectival, it seems. We define's em as we see's em... And we are all unique.

Or rather those experiences define us. Or perhaps a little of both.

There is no inherent distinction between what we perceive and who we are.

What I perceive does not change reality.

Correct, what you perceive is (a real feature of) Reality.. Now! and Now! and Now!!!
You are nondifferent then 'reality'. Perceiver and perceived are 'one'.

And the point I was making was that if what I perceived was reality, then why can't I change what I perceive and in turn change reality.

Who is the 'you' that perceives? Who is the 'you' that wishes to change what you perceive?
Reality cannot be changed. It already is. There is no possibility of 'changing' any chosen moment. The moment/percept chosen is a single perspect (like a snapshot) of the Universe. Every moment = unique Perspective, in sum-total = the complete Universe.
The Universe is an already done deal, all moments/percepts ever. Of which you are and integral feature.
Who wants to change what? *__-

While you may argue that reality changes in reference to the individual.

The features of the Universe, as perceived moment/percept a' moment/percept, are uniquely different as is the 'individual' Perspective.

As is the case of extreme schizophrenia I would argue still that it is the general census that these individuals do not infact change the definite laws of reality.

No one 'changes' anything, and a discussion on your "definite laws of reality" and the philosophical value of a plea to the fallacy of 'consensus', is a whole 'nother discussion.

No matter whether there are a multitude in concensus, or one individual alone that perceives something, that Perspective exists (everything exists), and existing is a real feature of the complete Universe! His plaid unicorn, by his very perception, exists.
I think that if we carefully examined for the distinctions between "extreme schizophrenia", or 'moderate' or 'slight' or you and I, seems to come down to the 'consensus' of the power structure at the time, political, egoic.
How many ways do societies devise to anathemise those that are 'different'? Who perceive the world a bit differently, who march to their own drummer? They are called ill, dopers, nuts, crazy, fags... it's convenient to categorize and dismiss all sorts of people (who might make us a bit uncomfortable), but the Reality is that 'they' are as real and valid (a feature of the complete Reality of the complete Universe) as anyone else.

"The complete Universe is defined/described as the sum-total of all Conscious Perspectives!" - Book of Fudd (9:11)
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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby Mr. Focus on July 21st, 2009, 6:41 pm 

nameless,

"Stream?"

Ow I meant river.

"We are Perspectives that are as perceived. We 'define' direct perception with 'thought'. 'Thought' is directly perceived, also. All definition is perspectival, it seems. We define's em as we see's em... And we are all unique."

That is what I was asking. For you opinion, that's all. Though I would argue, that from the vantage of only the perspective, we are not all unique. In what way is a predetermined and calculated perspective unique? If you define unique as merely a different point of matter, then that's not really unique at all. Its actually quite common to be a different point of time and space. Uniqueness is only available through quality.

"Who is the 'you' that perceives? Who is the 'you' that wishes to change what you perceive?"

a conscious perceiver who has the ability to change his perceptions and his reality.

"The Universe is an already done deal, all moments/percepts ever. Of which you are and integral feature.
Who wants to change what? *__- "

How incredibly BORING. Even if you could logically prove or even being to prove that this were true. I might as well choose to ignore it and live a fuller happier life believing in things like love, and infinity, and beauty. Ow wait, whose choosing? I mean that would take away choice, choice being a false delusion. And without choice, we are just animals of chemicals. Instinctual moving towards an action. In that case I can go rob a bank and commit murder without any fear of justice.

But wait! there must be a balance! So while I have no choice rather or not to shoot someone, also I must face the full reaction and balancing of that action. Wow, life in this universe really sucks!

I do not mind people who are different then the norm of society. I am one of them. What I am talking about are the ideas of Free will, Individuality, Consciousness, Who we are.

And I for one think, that we are something, So I would take your example to the extreme to test its legit ability. I am not talking about rather society would or should accept a murderer. I am talking about Rather the Universe Justifies a murderer.

""The complete Universe is defined/described as the sum-total of all Conscious Perspectives!" - Book of Fudge"

the key word being Conscious in this sentence. What exactly is a Conscious perspective? And furthermore what is a non-conscious perspective?

The funny thing is. The minute the individual recognizes the forces of perspective that are acting upon him or her. He or she is Free to choose which forces to allow to determine his or her choices.

yours,

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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby nameless on July 22nd, 2009, 3:46 am 

Mr. Focus wrote:
nameless wrote:"We are Perspectives that are as perceived. We 'define' direct perception with 'thought'. 'Thought' is directly perceived, also. All definition is perspectival, it seems. We define's em as we see's em... And we are all unique."

That is what I was asking. For you opinion, that's all.

Isn't that what I gave you?

Though I would argue, that from the vantage of only the perspective, we are not all unique.

It is the definition of Perspective. All Perspectives must be unique or the meaningless paradoxical notion of two Perspectives being exactly the same they would have to be exactly ONE Perspective. And that is, of course, nonsense. Hence, all are unique.
If you'll allow an illustration;
The True *Pot of Gold* at the 'End of the Rainbow' (I take great risk revealing this arcane wisdom, they're watching me.. *__- ) is YOU!
And me.
And everyone else that perceives.
To wit;
A rainbow is a portion of the base of a 'cone', of which, you are the 'apex'. Someone standing shoulder to shoulder with you is (standing at) a completely different apex viewing a completely different basal segment than your base. A different 'cone' entirely. It is not possible for the two of you, even if one nanometer, one quadrillionth of the radius of one photon phart, to both see the same rainbow. Perspective works like that.
The 'rainbow' is Mind. All unique 'apexes' = Conscious Perspective.
It, of course, doesn't seem like that in the 'mundane' world.
We can sit side by side discussing all the intricacies and beauties that language can express of 'that' rainbow, there might well be sufficient 'concensus' for us to 'feel' and/or 'think' that we are speaking of the 'same' rainbow. That's the 'appearance', anyway.

In what way is a predetermined and calculated perspective unique?

Did I just fall into the Twilight Zone? I have said nothing of "predetermined and calculated perspectives". Those are your words, you chew em.

If you define unique as merely a different point of matter, then that's not really unique at all. Its actually quite common to be a different point of time and space. Uniqueness is only available through quality.

Perhaps my rainbow example, above, will help clarify what I am saying.

"Who is the 'you' that perceives?

Who is the 'you' that wishes to change what you perceive?"


a conscious perceiver who has the ability to change his perceptions and his reality.

So, you are a god that can alter your perceived universe in accord of your wishes? I certainly understand such a prideful egoic Perspective. I often am one.

"The Universe is an already done deal, all moments/percepts ever. Of which you are and integral feature.
Who wants to change what? *__- "

How incredibly BORING.

Happy to return your money outside the back door... *__-

Even if you could logically prove or even being to prove that this were true. I might as well choose to ignore it and live a fuller happier life believing in things like love, and infinity, and beauty. Ow wait, whose choosing? I mean that would take away choice, choice being a false delusion. And without choice, we are just animals of chemicals. Instinctual moving towards an action. In that case I can go rob a bank and commit murder without any fear of justice.

But wait! there must be a balance! So while I have no choice rather or not to shoot someone, also I must face the full reaction and balancing of that action. Wow, life in this universe really sucks!

You know, I have absolutely no intention of offending your belief system. In my philosophy, your belief system is a real feature of Reality, a truth; simply limited, as are all Perspectives. All win/win/win... Your apparently emotional response tells me that I am treading on your beliefs. That moves us from the field of philosophy into religion, so far as I can see. 'Belief' (religion) and 'critical thought' (philosophy) are diametrically opposed, the greater the one, the less of the other.

I do not mind people who are different then the norm of society.
I am one of them. What I am talking about are the ideas of Free will, Individuality, Consciousness, Who we are.

I thought that is what I have been talking about? At least touching upon. Free-will, individuality being vain beliefs.
Let me try from this angle;
For a complete definition of something, anything, one must include context, right? We cannot fully define a fish without including their context, water (and whether saline, fresh; warm or cold, shallow to deep, etc...)
So, following this line, ultimately (see; Butterfly Effect) the entire Universe is necessary for a complete definition of anything!
As the entire Universe is required in a complete definition of 'me', for example, I can fairly say that I and the Universe is an integral whole, one.
Now, you are telling me that you 'believe' that you have some capability to alter the entire Universe, from what it is Now! and Now! and Now!!, to make yerself 'more comfortable'? Thats what the belief in 'free-will/choice' is about, egoPerspective believing that it is (I am) 'god'. Pride.
I'm not saying that this is good or bad or right or wrong, I'm just holding the flashlight...

And I for one think, that we are something, So I would take your example to the extreme to test its legit ability. I am not talking about rather society would or should accept a murderer. I am talking about Rather the Universe Justifies a murderer.

Justification is in the eye of the beholder, and thereby exists. The Universe need nothing, it's perfect as is. Thank Dog that you and I really don't get the chance to play at the controls! Hahahaha... But make-believe can be next best.

""The complete Universe is defined/described as the sum-total of all Conscious Perspectives!" - Book of Fudge"

This is unacceptable. This is a philosophy forum, and I made a legitimate site. Your wit and humor, in this context, is not appreciated. Making such cutting witticism is meant to what? Discredit the statement?

the key word being Conscious in this sentence.

The author tells me that they are all key words. Think 'context'.

What exactly is a Conscious perspective?

You, me, a frog, perhaps a virus or bacteria or a stone...
'That' which perceives is a Conscious Perspective. That there is perception indicates Consciousness. That there is 'something' to perceive indicates (the limitations of) Perspective. There can be no Universe without Conscious Perspective.

And furthermore what is a non-conscious perspective?

A meaningless string of letters (and hyphen) on my monitor, nothing more than that. From the perspectives of science and logic, there can be no such critter. Meaningless.

The funny thing is. The minute the individual recognizes the forces of perspective that are acting upon him or her. He or she is Free to choose which forces to allow to determine his or her choices.

There are no "forces of perspective" acting on anything, you ARE Perspective! Open your eyes! What happens? Perspective! That is how Consciousness can know Mind, by Conscious Perspective.
As Meister Eckhart said; "God cannot know himself without me."
Okey dokey then..
I understand where you are comming from. Perhaps something that I have said makes some sense to you.
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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby Mr. Focus on July 22nd, 2009, 6:27 pm 

A different 'cone' entirely. It is not possible for the two of you, even if one nanometer, one quadrillionth of the radius of one photon phart, to both see the same rainbow. Perspective works like that.
The 'rainbow' is Mind. All unique 'apexes' = Conscious Perspective.


This is all very interesting though I must admit I don't really understand it. We could all be different parts of a necklace that are facing directions and such. I guess there a tons of different ways to express it. But that understanding does not fully grasp the idea of attention and the idea of consciousness.

I will take an example. What if we are all watching the same TV show? In that case we are all relative to the TV in more or less the same way. Maybe you could argue that the quality and distance from the TV would be different but that is hardly an agreement for uniqueness. If three millions people share the same idea and have no real different perspective. I mean one could argue their difference on a quantum scale. But basically, there all the same thing.

Beside all the lies the universal perspective. And that perspective has the ability to make all one.

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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby nameless on July 23rd, 2009, 3:34 am 

Mr. Focus wrote:Beside all the lies the universal perspective. And that perspective has the ability to make all one.

There is no Universal Perspective.
All is 'one', and a multitude (depending on Perspective/context).
Again, I urge you to read, study, and understand all the various dictionary(s) definitions of 'perspective' to even begin to understand what I'm talking about.
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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby Mr. Focus on July 23rd, 2009, 5:37 pm 

Its like you seem to be so stuck in your own perspective that you don't like discussing the opinions of others.

Maybe all that I have said is my perspective and is right via my perceptive.

What do we gain then from sharing perspectives if we are too tightly clung to our own?

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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby nameless on July 24th, 2009, 1:27 am 

Mr. Focus wrote:Its like you seem to be so stuck in your own perspective that you don't like discussing the opinions of others.

I have been offering and attempting to make this Perspective understandable for anyone interested in what I offer. I'm not 'stuck' on anything other than, perhaps, following our seemingly fruitless conversation.

Maybe all that I have said is my perspective and is right via my perceptive.

You got it. (And be sure not to let any other Perspectives in that might 'challenge' any beliefs! "I know what I know what I know...")

What do we gain then from sharing perspectives if we are too tightly clung to our own?

I could well have asked this of you. The 'uncommon' Perspective on the table is that which I offer. There is nothing new to me of the same old linear/freewill/materialist Perspectives. The internet is replete with them.
I am (generously) offering something 'different', the present culmination of over half a century's research and creative critical thought and experience and practice. That is why, perhaps, you might feel that you have come in at the end of the movie. I just offer the sweetest fruits, and will elaborate when and as necessary.
i don't know what you are offering that I am 'rejecting'. It was you who had the problem with my post. Therefore it is incumbent on me to explain, and you take that courtesy suchly?
Are we done with this conversation yet? I am finding it fruitless, so, if you have any specific questions of my posts that you sincerely are interested in understanding, ask away.
If not, I'll see you around.
peace
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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby pringlechip on July 24th, 2009, 2:55 am 

It seems reality can only be created by a pespective. Our whole "reality" is defined by electrical signals in our brain -which by the way never, itself, experiences the outside world save for the input from sense organs. Reality can only be determined from a point of view. Our point of view is that of beings viewing reality from the inside. If their were beings viewing our reality from the outside -which could imply that our reality is in fact a simulation- even they would be subject to questioning the nature of their own reality.

Sometimes I wonder if all of my reality could be an illusion I've created. The "real" me is rocking back and forth in a padded cell, and all of the objects and people in my life are only happening inside my brain, in some kind of psychosis. In fact who am I to say that somebody with schizophrenia or permanent psychosis is living in a dream world? To that particular person their reality is just as real to them as mine is to me. Reality itself could be some kind of shared, mass psychosis in which all consciouss beings are trapped.

Another interesting idea is the thought of perceptions themselves. How are we to know exactly how another person perceives an experience? What I see as red may seem to you green, yet we call this color by the same name because that is how we've experienced this label all of our lives. So reality must definetley be determined by perspective objectivley, but at the same time consciousness interacts with other consciousnesses in a kind of collective consciousness, if you will, to create the physical reality we share and experience. Unless I am the only 'real' person and all of you are just simulated. That is a question I will never know that answer to... I could even be a simulation, but when a simulation perceives itself as real, and alive, isn't it?
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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby Mr. Focus on July 24th, 2009, 6:22 pm 

nameless,

"The 'uncommon' Perspective on the table is that which I offer."

Lol! It seems that the perspective that you offer is quite common. In fact the majority of the those members of these forums actually share it as well as most of the scientific community in America. The difference would be only the amount of development you have put into it. Most people beat around the bush about their ideas of complete perspective reality but do not fully admit it and take it to the next level of thought. No my friend, it is quite common, the only thing uncommon would be the level of degree in which you have developed your thought process.

"I am (generously) offering something 'different', the present culmination of over half a century's research and creative critical thought and experience and practice."

Maybe I am misreading your statements then.

Because according to the current scientific and physiologic mindsets you are backing and building upon their research. The idea that we are all animals with predictable chemical reactions that are unable to really have free-will nor is God able to said to exist. I mean, that has been the thinking of scientist for hundreds of years.

I never had a problem with you post.

I only asked you to explain it.

But as it seems you are above explaining to someone who is interested in others' perspective then so be it.

Explanation is not a test of your intelligence. It is a request for those of us who do not yet understand.

From what I have read the greatest minds have always striven to take extremely complex ideas and make them so simple that all mankind could understand them. Einstein, for example, understood all of his high ideas at a relatively early age, what he spent his lifetime doing, was setting proofs and writing books so the common man and mathematician could understand him.

Maybe if we didn't place such a high value and supremacy of our own perspective, then we could learn from others.

yours,

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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby Mr. Focus on July 24th, 2009, 6:36 pm 

pringlechip,

"It seems reality can only be created by a perspective. Our whole "reality" is defined by electrical signals in our brain -which by the way never, itself, experiences the outside world save for the input from sense organs. Reality can only be determined from a point of view. Our point of view is that of beings viewing reality from the inside. If their were beings viewing our reality from the outside -which could imply that our reality is in fact a simulation- even they would be subject to questioning the nature of their own reality."

So then the question is, Are there other means the we can interpret reality? Are there other senses or signals on other fields of planes that we are unaware of but have access to?

What I like so much about your post is that it brings up two very important and very interesting questions.

The first is, is there a Truth?

And by truth, is there a undeniable color Red or Green? For example science would tell us that the color Green is a certain wave length that the human eye perceives and that that wave length is interpreted in the memory, as taught by birth, as green. So would that wave length be truth? Certainly we can say it is reality? For it does not change via person to person, and we all seem to be able to determine that wave length is green.

Maybe that is such a collective reality/perception? And that because we all hold our attention upon that wave length and acknowledge its existing, we cause it to be so. And if that were so, could we decided to place our attention on anything of our choosing and create whatever reality that we wish? (If only we could make others believe our reality!) And if we are all chemical mathematical sensory impulses then could we really create anything original or unique?

This of course leads us to the second question.

Is our perspective the reality of who we are? Is our sensory input, memory, genetic make-up, and chemical balances all that we are?

"...Unless I am the only 'real' person and all of you are just simulated. That is a question I will never know that answer to... I could even be a simulation, but when a simulation perceives itself as real, and alive, isn't it?"

You seem so certain that you will never be able to answer that question. I would hope that that certainty would not act as a restraint to limit your ability to find an answer for such a questions.

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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby nameless on July 25th, 2009, 6:47 am 

Mr. Focus wrote:nameless,... blah blah...

Yeah, predictable... whatever...
I think that our discussions, being fruitless, are now ended.
Have a nice day
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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby Aristippus on July 26th, 2009, 9:51 pm 

Mr. Focus wrote:That if perspective were reality then we could change our perspective and reality around us would change. This is most obviously not the case.

A question: how do you know?
How would you know that reality itself didn't change with your experience of it (your perspective)? The only way to verify its validity, as far as I can see, would be through further experience — would, in other words, be through perspective — and no other way. How do you get 'behind' your perspective?

Mr. Focus wrote:For let us say that I could trick my mind into perceiving via sights, via sound and feeling that I were flying. Would I actually be flying?

If the simulation were as clear and convincing as so-called 'real life', I don't know how I could say definitively or absolutely whether or not I was 'actually' flying.

Mr. Focus wrote:Is there a way to get in touch with the "real" Reality?

Perspective is reality, as far as we are concerned. IF there is an absolute Reality 'behind it all', so to speak, we have no way of knowing it.
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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby pringlechip on July 26th, 2009, 10:45 pm 

Mr. Focus wrote:
So then the question is, Are there other means the we can interpret reality? Are there other senses or signals on other fields of planes that we are unaware of but have access to?


Ahh! That is a question that the greatest philosophers and theists have been debating for thousands of years. The only answer I can really give to that is: each person defines, and perceives reality from a unique view point, that of a personality that has never existed before (depending on what you believe). Even a karmic reborn spirit possesses a unique consciousness developed by experiences that would give a predisposition for certain techniques of becoming aware of these "planes" be it Zen, Prayer, or Tribal Dance.

Mr. Focus wrote:
What I like so much about your post is that it brings up two very important and very interesting questions.

The first is, is there a Truth?

And by truth, is there a undeniable color Red or Green? For example science would tell us that the color Green is a certain wave length that the human eye perceives and that that wave length is interpreted in the memory, as taught by birth, as green. So would that wave length be truth? Certainly we can say it is reality? For it does not change via person to person, and we all seem to be able to determine that wave length is green.


We may all be able to perceive a certain wave length as green, and the wave length itself does not change because it is shared, but the way our brain interprets that wave length could very well differ. So the truth of the wave length is determined by the brain individually. My question is, how can I assume that you see a leaf the same way I do? The wave length of the color is undeniable, but even that wave length must pass through our eye where it is converted into an electrical signal that we "view" in the back of our brains. In that process who knows how distorted the image becomes?

My point is:
We may all be able to say the wave length is green, but I could very well be experiencing a different color than you, as dictated by my brain; we both just call it by the same label.


Mr. Focus wrote:
Maybe that is such a collective reality/perception? And that because we all hold our attention upon that wave length and acknowledge its existing, we cause it to be so. And if that were so, could we decided to place our attention on anything of our choosing and create whatever reality that we wish? (If only we could make others believe our reality!) And if we are all chemical mathematical sensory impulses then could we really create anything original or unique?


It could be possible, but would that creation manifest in the physical world, or just in our brains
(is there even any difference!?)? We may be sensory impulses, but the little I know of quantum physics says that all matter is the realization of potentiality; that being said would we really be creating anything at all, or just choosing from a list of probabilities?

Mr. Focus wrote:
This of course leads us to the second question.

Is our perspective the reality of who we are? Is our sensory input, memory, genetic make-up, and chemical balances all that we are?


I would like to think that the reality of who we are creates sensory input, genetic make-up determines how our consciousness interacts with the world around it, chemical balances (and imbalances) simply alter the way our sensory input is delivered to the brain, and memory are the experiences the consciousness gains from interacting with itself and others (itself because that is what I am associating with our physical reality).

Mr. Focus wrote:
pringlechip wrote:
"...Unless I am the only 'real' person and all of you are just simulated. That is a question I will never know that answer to... I could even be a simulation, but when a simulation perceives itself as real, and alive, isn't it?"


You seem so certain that you will never be able to answer that question. I would hope that that certainty would not act as a restraint to limit your ability to find an answer for such a questions.


I have been asking these questions since I was in late elementary school; laying in bed thinking about life, death, and meaning, what things mean to me, and how that differs from what they mean to others. Part of the reason I flirt with these questions is because I know that in different points of my life my interpretation,and position in life will affect my answer. Truth is relative to the observer, and it seems it can be another constantly moving 'object' that we can gauge the passing of individual time. < I hope that makes sense.
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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby PerfectZero on November 3rd, 2016, 9:35 am 

You say truth is relative to the observer but truth is an illusion, and when brought into reality and discussed by inquisitive minds, it ultimately becomes victimized and judged by things like morality which ultimately is subjective. Correct?
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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby kudayta on November 3rd, 2016, 12:18 pm 

PerfectZero,

This thread is older than the Arab Spring. I wouldn't expect an answer to your question.
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Re: Is Perspective Reality?

Postby nameless on May 27th, 2017, 5:28 am 

Mr. Focus » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:16 am wrote:So is perspective reality? Just because we perceive something does it make it true?

Yes!
Truth is ALL inclusive!
Please follow;
Everything exists!
'Thoughts' exist, as does the content, thus unicorns exist. Unicorns also exist in fiction, art, imaginations, etc...
Existence is ALL inclusive!
Thus, Reality must be ALL inclusive as it is predicated on that which exists!
Thus Truth, predicated on Reality/existence, must also be ALL inclusive!
Thus not anything can ever be perceived by Perspective that is not Reality!

Does it make it exist?

No, not anything 'makes anything' exist.
Perspective allows that which is... to be Known.
Each and every Perspective is unique every moment of Universal existence!
We are all unique Conscious Perspectives (Souls) uniquely perceiving the One unchanging Universe every moment of existence.
Every point in the Universe, ever, is a unique Soul!
Thus are We Omni-, thus is ALL Known!

Is perspective our only means of comprehension?

Yes!
An illustration;

'Point to the left'.
Easy.
Note where you are pointing.
Now turn 1 degree and point to the left.
Again note the results.
Now another degree, etc...
And another 1/4 of a degree...
Turn in every possible direction, on every possible axis!
It turns out that every direction is 'left', 'left' is a 'cloud needing a particular Perspective to have any 'direction' at all!
Now point to the 'right'!
Same drill!
Note that the exact same cloud of 'left', is also, at the same moment, a cloud of 'right'!
And a cloud of 'up'!
And a cloud of 'down'...
Do the experiment!

The only 'distinctions' that can even be called 'left' or 'right', OR 'up' and 'down'... are a matter of Perspective!

Ultimately, We are One (unchanging (motionless), all inclusive) 'Cloud'/Reality!!

Or is this perspective like horse blinkers that limits our vision?

Exactly!
We can 'discern' that which is before us because we can remain ignorant of the remaining entirety of Reality.
It is the focus of each Perspective and the severe limitations by which 'left' can be Known/experienced.

My thoughts on the subject is that perspective is merely to tool in which we take in and perhaps dish out information. But perspective is only a means to an end. That logic and intelligence allows the individual to step back from his or her perspective and make decisions based upon more educated standpoint.

Soul/Perspective is the 'screen' upon which the 'make believe' movie of 'your' Reality is played. From the thoughts that you perceive (no, you do not manufacture thought in your brain), to the sun and stars, all is perceived Reality.
Thought = ego/identity, logic, intelligence... is all 'thought' that we perceive.

(By the way, 'thought is NOT your friend and you would be wise to never believe anything that you think/feel (feelings are thoughts)!)

That if perspective were reality then we could change our perspective and reality around us would change.

As evidenced by no two moments ever being identical! That means every Perspective of the One unchanging Reality/Truth is unique every moment!
That 'appears' to the One Universal Consciousness as a constantly 'changing' Reality.
Thus are thoughts not to be believed.
Reality is 'make-believe', to 'believe' it is insanity!

tat tvam asi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tat_Tvam_Asi)
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