An exemplar of theory from sociology.

Not quite philosophy discussions, debates, various thought experiments and other topics of interest.

Using linear estimates for non-linear processes.

Postby Ursa Minimus on October 9th, 2015, 11:33 am 

BioWizard » October 9th, 2015, 8:06 am wrote:
Ursa Minimus » 09 Oct 2015 08:48 am wrote:I suggest that asking people about stuff they know in more detail than you do would be a basic showing of respect.

I give what I get on that front.


Is that so now? Because you did not grant me (whether directly or indirectly) that respect when I said in another thread that some nuances about doing science (which may result in non-reproducibility) aren't readily evident to non-scientists. In fact, you launched an attack on me, and accused me of disdain for non-scientists. Was I not worthy of the benefit of the doubt, if not the respect you speak of?

Shameless displays of double standards (that don't give people credit for their intelligence) and obsession with being always right are not exactly what come to my mind when I think of due respect. Please stop.


If I cared, which I really don't, I would go back and point out how things escalated as best I could. Because... recall bias. I could employ well established content analysis techniques that have been used to study conflicts. But since that would be social science, I doubt you would pay enough attention to the details to be able to evaluate my methodology without putting in a level of work you have not displayed to this point.

Note, work. Not ability. Not intelligence. Work.

BTW, I thought you weren't to my posts any more? What comes to mind when people say one thing and do another? I've seen you lock threads because they get off topic, but I have also see you continue to be off topic in a thread for quite a while. Is that a double standard?

This is a game that is easy to play... if you don't mind ignoring lots of details that could matter. Kind of like doing social science or physics or poetry is easy, if you don't mind ignoring lots of details that could matter.

Since you said you won't be replying to my posts, I suggest that if you wish to take me to task for something, or demand I hew to a specific standard of posting that you care to define, you can do so via PM and not derail threads.
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Re: Using linear estimates for non-linear processes.

Postby mtbturtle on October 9th, 2015, 1:16 pm 

Natural ChemE » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:47 am wrote:
BioWizard » October 9th, 2015, 11:30 am wrote:
mtbturtle » 09 Oct 2015 11:27 am wrote:Yes my impression of these threads is they are pissing contests, academic truff marking.


Well, see, had you been a biochemist, a physicist/mathematician, or a social scientist, you would've known that your impression was entirely false. Alas, you don't possess our academic knowledge and wisdom, and therefor you lack the expertise to evaluate the threads rigorously ;)))

The worst part about this discussion is that now we know that, as outsiders, we're unequiped to make disparaging assessments of Scientology.


It is not about being an outsider, it is about having relevant training, information. You as an outsider could have attempted to gain this knowledge, but you aren't going to pick it up from some journal articles. Having done so, you could have developed some rigorous criteria by which to evaluate social science and natural science and then gone about applying it methodically, but you haven't so why should I respect your opinions on this issue. Oh wait I remember cause it's math that's what allows you to disparage Social Science.
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Re: Using linear estimates for non-linear processes.

Postby mtbturtle on October 9th, 2015, 1:17 pm 

BioWizard » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:54 am wrote:On the bright side NCE, we too are now immune to criticism from people outside our respective fields. Anyone outside our circle of domain-experts is apparently ill-equipped to criticize any part of what we do. This shall come in handy in future (and possibly some past) threads (albeit not in real life - unfortunately).


straw man

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Re: Using linear estimates for non-linear processes.

Postby mtbturtle on October 9th, 2015, 1:26 pm 

BioWizard » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:21 pm wrote:
mtbturtle » 09 Oct 2015 12:16 pm wrote:It is not about being an outsider, it is about having relevant training, information. You as an outsider could have attempted to gain this knowledge, but you aren't going to pick it up from some journal articles. Having done so, you could have developed some rigorous criteria by which to evaluate social science and natural science and then gone about applying it methodically, but you haven't so why should I respect your opinions on this issue. Oh wait I remember cause it's math that's what allows you to disparage Social Science.


Yes, so basically.... next time you want to criticize any part of science, be sure to go get a relevant degree and practice the trade for some time before you do it. And if you intend to do so about something related to my line of work, your degree, training, experience, and publications better be in biochemistry or molecular biology. Otherwise everything you say will be irrelevant to me. Right?

I can dig that.


Unless agreements are made to stop the personal commentary, hyperbolic phrasing and strawmanning and other logical fallacies, dragging in other threads, iow, the pissing contest - I am out. The above needs to be rephrased in light of what i actually said in order to avoid the strawmanning
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Re: Using linear estimates for non-linear processes.

Postby mtbturtle on October 9th, 2015, 1:31 pm 

BioWizard » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:28 pm wrote:We're being told that we're ill-equipped to criticize any part of social science's methodologies because we're not trained as social scientists. There is no straw-person here.


You have not been told that.

When it comes to Biochemistry I'm going to listen to you over Ursa, shouldn't I? - when it comes to critiques of Bio methodology I'm going to assume yours would be more informed than Ursa's. Are you telling me there's no difference? That being a scientist, having some math, and reading some journals makes Ursa equal to you?
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Re: Using linear estimates for non-linear processes.

Postby Ursa Minimus on October 9th, 2015, 1:34 pm 

mtbturtle » October 9th, 2015, 9:42 am wrote:...personal insults (including as a teacher)...


I have data.


After studying the relationship between on campus and online evaluations in the literature, I did a stratified cluster sample of sociology prof evaluations on ratemyprofessor. Qualitative and quantitative analysis.

"Ease" ratings were perfectly normal. So they clearly measure a comparison with other profs.

"Quality" ratings were skewed high.

About 10% of the sample were rated Q above 4 and E below 3. So hard, but good. I am one of these, but not in the sample.

About 10% were rated Q above 4 and E above 4. Easy and good.

About 20% were Q above 4, and E in the 3s.

Note the normal distribution of those categories. Difficulty is uncorrelated with quality, for the high quality profs.

Non-linear regression based stats showed that gender had no effect on ending up in the hard but good group.

Qualitative analysis showed that men in that group, and in general, were described with terms like "got me to think" and "I learned a lot". Women were almost never talked about in that way.

Women were talked about as being "smart". Rarely "got me to think" and "I learned a lot".

The difference? Well, "smart" is about the prof, while "got me to think" and "I learned a lot" are about the effect on the student by the prof.

Interesting. A finding that required a mixed methods approach.

But for purposes of my teaching, I don't have any doubts about what I do or how well I do it.
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Re: Using linear estimates for non-linear processes.

Postby Ursa Minimus on October 9th, 2015, 1:36 pm 

mtbturtle » October 9th, 2015, 11:31 am wrote:
BioWizard » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:28 pm wrote:We're being told that we're ill-equipped to criticize any part of social science's methodologies because we're not trained as social scientists. There is no straw-person here.


You have not been told that.



Agreed.

Thus, straw person. A logical fallacy.
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Re: Using linear estimates for non-linear processes.

Postby Ursa Minimus on October 9th, 2015, 3:22 pm 

mtbturtle » October 9th, 2015, 12:57 pm wrote:Ursa would be barely qualified because he occupies one discipline within Social Science.


I know I know a fraction of what is out there.

That is in part because my field covers a lot of turf, and draws on a lot of other areas of study. http://www.asanet.org/sections/list.cfm for the professional sections, where interest is high enough to draw enough people to establish a section in the ASA.

Plus, we have to consider that sociology is not filled by only those who take a scientific approach. Some deny a scientific approach is possible for what they study. I teach theory, so I can usually understand why they think that. And I can respect the examples of such work that are very explicit (say, studies in cultural sociology, which I know little about, but I know there are a lot of rules to follow to do it right.)
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Re: Using linear estimates for non-linear processes.

Postby mtbturtle on October 9th, 2015, 3:22 pm 

BioWizard » Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:20 pm wrote:
Ursa Minimus » 09 Oct 2015 10:33 am wrote:BTW, I thought you weren't to my posts any more? What comes to mind when people say one thing and do another? I've seen you lock threads because they get off topic, but I have also see you continue to be off topic in a thread for quite a while. Is that a double standard?

This is a game that is easy to play... if you don't mind ignoring lots of details that could matter. Kind of like doing social science or physics or poetry is easy, if you don't mind ignoring lots of details that could matter.

Since you said you won't be replying to my posts, I suggest that if you wish to take me to task for something, or demand I hew to a specific standard of posting that you care to define, you can do so via PM and not derail threads.


For your rigorous record, I did not say that I won't be replying to your posts. My exact words were: "l will skip over your posts for now". Quite different.


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Re: Using linear estimates for non-linear processes.

Postby mtbturtle on October 9th, 2015, 3:25 pm 

Ursa Minimus » Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:22 pm wrote:
mtbturtle » October 9th, 2015, 12:57 pm wrote:Ursa would be barely qualified because he occupies one discipline within Social Science.


I know I know a fraction of what is out there.

That is in part because my field covers a lot of turf, and draws on a lot of other areas of study. http://www.asanet.org/sections/list.cfm for the professional sections, where interest is high enough to draw enough people to establish a section in the ASA.

Plus, we have to consider that sociology is not filled by only those who take a scientific approach. Some deny a scientific approach is possible for what they study. I teach theory, so I can usually understand why they think that. And I can respect the examples of such work that are very explicit (say, studies in cultural sociology, which I know little about, but I know there are a lot of rules to follow to do it right.)


So you can have rigor without Science? imagine that and you can have rigor without math ?
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An exemplar of theory from sociology.

Postby BioWizard on October 10th, 2015, 7:16 am 

Just as chemistry is not expected to be very useful outside its scope (say, to explain architecture), we should evaluate the theory where it claims to apply. Within the scope.


Is architecture even a science? What does architecture help us explain?

Why not consider the role of chemistry in another scientific discipline originally outside its scope? Shall we say biology? Just how much biology has been (and continues to be) explained by chemistry? Is that maybe why we now have biochemistry, chemical biology, biological chemistry, molecular biology, and so on?
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Re: An exemplar of theory from sociology.

Postby mtbturtle on October 10th, 2015, 7:21 am 

BioWizard » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:16 am wrote:
Just as chemistry is not expected to be very useful outside its scope (say, to explain architecture), we should evaluate the theory where it claims to apply. Within the scope.


Is architecture even a science? What does architecture help us explain?

Why not consider the role of chemistry in another scientific discipline originally outside its scope? Shall we say biology? Just how much biology has been (and continues to be) explained by chemistry? Is that maybe why we now have biochemistry, chemical biology, biological chemistry, molecular biology, and so on?


I think you missed the point (intentionally) - I don't see the relevance of your questions. How about we try to stay on topic this time or should we just get our boots and umbrellas out now? it's like you are trying to drive social science discussion out of the forums. If such discussions are not welcome here, just say so.
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Re: An exemplar of theory from sociology.

Postby BioWizard on October 10th, 2015, 7:23 am 

How about the role of chemistry in geology? Astronomy?...?

I think you are missing the point here. This was a premise in the OP.
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Re: An exemplar of theory from sociology.

Postby Ursa Minimus on October 10th, 2015, 7:28 am 

BioWizard » October 10th, 2015, 5:16 am wrote:
Just as chemistry is not expected to be very useful outside its scope (say, to explain architecture), we should evaluate the theory where it claims to apply. Within the scope.


Is architecture even a science? What does architecture help us explain?

Why not consider the role of chemistry in another scientific discipline originally outside its scope? Shall we say biology? Just how much biology has been (and continues to be) explained by chemistry? Is that maybe why we now have biochemistry, chemical biology, biological chemistry, molecular biology, and so on?


The example speaks to the intended scope of a theory.

The authors define their intended scope explicitly.

I suggest you limit yourself to the actual article, screen shots or full version, and not my set up for the article in terms of what their language means.
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Re: An exemplar of theory from sociology.

Postby mtbturtle on October 10th, 2015, 7:28 am 

BioWizard » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:23 am wrote:How about the role of chemistry in geology? Astronomy?...?

I think you are missing the point here. This was a premise in the OP.


Does scope (of a theory) mean something different in Biochemistry than it does in Sociology? What premise are you talking about?
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Re: An exemplar of theory from sociology.

Postby BioWizard on October 10th, 2015, 7:32 am 

Ursa Minimus » 10 Oct 2015 06:28 am wrote:I suggest you limit yourself to the actual article, screen shots or full version, and not my set up for the article in terms of what their language means.


That's a fair request. But then again I already have my science homework for the weekend.
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Re: An exemplar of theory from sociology.

Postby Ursa Minimus on October 10th, 2015, 7:34 am 

As some never directly addressed this article in another thread (even when an example was explicitly asked for), but rather barely addressed my talk about that article, I expected such a response. To do otherwise would require labor.

If people don't want to do the work required to contribute to this thread, I suggest they refrain from posting until such time as they do.
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Re: An exemplar of theory from sociology.

Postby BioWizard on October 10th, 2015, 7:36 am 

Ursa Minimus » 10 Oct 2015 06:34 am wrote:As some never directly addressed this article in another thread (even when an example was explicitly asked for), but rather barely addressed my talk about that article, I expected such a response. To do otherwise would require labor.

If people don't want to do the work required to contribute to this thread, I suggest they refrain from posting until such time as they do.


Again, a fair request. I'll leave it to the social science students.
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Re: An exemplar of theory from sociology.

Postby Ursa Minimus on October 10th, 2015, 7:55 am 

BioWizard » October 10th, 2015, 5:36 am wrote:
Ursa Minimus » 10 Oct 2015 06:34 am wrote:As some never directly addressed this article in another thread (even when an example was explicitly asked for), but rather barely addressed my talk about that article, I expected such a response. To do otherwise would require labor.

If people don't want to do the work required to contribute to this thread, I suggest they refrain from posting until such time as they do.


Again, a fair request. I'll leave it to the social science students.



Fine with me. But in the future, I will feel free to point to this thread when you make claims about the lack of rigor (in your sense of the term, not mine) in the social sciences.
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Re: An exemplar of theory from sociology.

Postby BioWizard on October 10th, 2015, 8:14 am 

Strawperson. Saw it coming a mile away. Cheers.
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