language game

Not quite philosophy discussions, debates, various thought experiments and other topics of interest.

language game

Postby BadgerJelly on June 30th, 2016, 1:48 am 

I am gong to try and convey something to you using onlh colours and prepositions. See if you can guess what it is.

Green opposite white. Red orange yellow, red orange yellow. Green opposite white. Blue over green, purple on green, white on green, yellow on green, orange on green, red on green. Blue over green. Green opposite white.

Also add yoru own attempts at communicating by these means.

Thank you
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Re: language game

Postby BadgerJelly on July 1st, 2016, 3:37 am 

Read these words oitbloud in order and see if you understand.

At what point do you find this difficult to read?

you Maybe this find too not to difficult fast read.

Other the on you maybe hand here more struggle

Much be should This you for difficult more read to you for

Easier get will it Eventually from reading start you'll because ease with left to right

Write to concentration takes it but.

I am curious to see if people found it difficult not to apply a method to reorder the words prior to anniuncing them verbally. I wrote it so hard for me to know!
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Re: language game

Postby dandelion on July 1st, 2016, 7:03 am 

A quick guess about the first post-
Sun-light observed from somewhere green, during the day and at dawn/dusk, say grasslands, forest, jungle, maybe depending on the greens?

I like the ideas here in both posts.
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Re: language game

Postby BadgerJelly on July 2nd, 2016, 3:56 am 

For the second one I imagine it gets harder to understand when read out loud. If you read it by spotting the pattern then it get a little hard then easier, like I said.

Did you find it harder and harder to understand when you read them out loud?
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Re: language game

Postby dandelion on July 2nd, 2016, 10:31 am 

Sorry, I may have tried not to pick the pattern while reading. I read it quickly, trying to forget so much about it being different and it didn't seem very difficult altogether, and just a little more so as it went on, and liked that. Being aware it was getting harder or something I seemed to automatically read the last line backwards. Given the ideas we've been discussing, I think reading "too" and "to" in that way was especially interesting. I only saw a pattern afterwards.
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Re: language game

Postby BadgerJelly on July 3rd, 2016, 11:21 am 

Really? I thought the upper case letters would make your brain sort out the sentence easier and help you unconsciously perceive the pattern. I guess I'd have to have hundreds, if not thousands, of people trying it out.

Would be interesting to see what changes made the biggest difference in comprehension.
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Re: language game

Postby dandelion on July 3rd, 2016, 1:27 pm 

Could something have overwritten cases in places because they didn't seem too obviously consistent to me, e.g. lower-case starting the first line, while the other lines started with upper-case, and what seemed to me to be a lack of very obvious consistency, while reading quickly, could have helped me pay less attention to them.

How about, how easy is this?

shallicomparetheetoasummersday
etarepmeteromdnaylevoleromtrauoht
roughwindsdoshakethedarlingbudsofmay
etabatrohsootllahtahesaelsremmusbna
sometimetoohottheeyeofheavenshines
bmmibnoixelqmocblogsihsinetfobna
andeveryfairfromfairsometimedeclines
bmmirtnuesruocgnignahcserutanroecnahcyd
butthyeternalsummershallnotfade
tswoouohtriaftahtfonoissessopesolron
norshalldeathbragthouwanderstinhisshade
tsworgouhtemitotsenillanreteninehw
whenineternallinestotimethougrowst
eesnacseyeroehtaerdnacnemsagnolos
solonglivesthisandthisgiveslifetothee
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Re: language game

Postby BadgerJelly on July 4th, 2016, 1:54 am 

Easy enough. I admit I was trying to make sense of the second line for a few seconds before moving on. Also helps if you are familiar with the poem.
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Re: language game

Postby dandelion on July 4th, 2016, 4:51 am 

Yes, thanks, I didn’t do it well. It lacked spacing and punctuation of some bostrophedon, but didn't really have letters facing backwards properly and even lines, breaking some words. I think there was a ancient tendency for readers to already be familiar with a text and read aloud to a group.

Orange, orange, white, orange, under green, green, in blue.
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Re: language game

Postby dandelion on July 4th, 2016, 8:48 am 

Spelling mistake- meant "boustrophedon".
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Re: language game

Postby BadgerJelly on July 4th, 2016, 10:55 am 

dandelion » July 4th, 2016, 8:48 pm wrote:Spelling mistake- meant "boustrophedon".


Huh??
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Re: language game

Postby dandelion on July 5th, 2016, 6:47 am 

Your post with jumbled language reminded me of a recent mention of syntax, so I thought of trying something along the lines of these too -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scriptio_continua
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boustrophedon
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Re: language game

Postby Braininvat on July 5th, 2016, 11:25 am 

Nair! A fat Saratoga mama got a Rastafarian!

On pure Venus, sun ever up? No.

Did I face decaf? I did!

Swap God for a janitor, rot in a jar of dog paws.

Go hang a salami, I'm a lasagna hog.

Draw a regal lager award.

Drab as a fool, aloof as a bard.

Evo Lydia, myriad dairy maid y'love.

Bonk a knob!
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Re: language game

Postby BadgerJelly on July 6th, 2016, 3:42 am 

Isn't it weird that we try and make sense of nonsense! And weirder that we can actually believe that we can in the face of know nonsense.

By talking about "sense" (colour/preposition) and writing I was looking at how differently we approach each.
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Re: language game

Postby dandelion on July 6th, 2016, 5:00 am 

Yes, weird that it can be fun, too.

Vibe! Can ace BIV?
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Re: language game

Postby Braininvat on July 6th, 2016, 9:57 am 

Ye vinegar 'n' oil, Edna Dandelion? Rage, Nivey!



Anything that constrains expresson seems to heighten our ability to encode peculiar meanings and somehow confer significance.

Wonder: I red now?

Maybe, Reb Yam.

We ponder red? No. Pew.

Re: We sneer, green sewer.
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Re: language game

Postby dandelion on July 7th, 2016, 10:26 am 

Braininvat » July 6th, 2016, 2:57 pm wrote:Ye vinegar 'n' oil, Edna Dandelion? Rage, Nivey!



Anything that constrains expresson seems to heighten our ability to encode peculiar meanings and somehow confer significance.

Wonder: I red now?

Maybe, Reb Yam.

We ponder red? No. Pew.

Re: We sneer, green sewer.


WOW
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Re: language game

Postby BadgerJelly on July 8th, 2016, 2:55 am 

Hahaha!!

Is it simply that by seeing a pattern we assume meaning? It does seem so. Funny thing is that what brainvat writes has meaning in the context of the topic only.

Kind of what I was looking at in "meaningless answers/questions" thingy I posted. Simply because I read two colours I assume meaning about those colours, and even more so because of the pattern I find in the writing. I found myself unable to try and link the context of the words "wonder" and "pew" and make an empty assumption about the meaning of "reb".

Jabberwochy ia one of my favourite examples of how we can find meaning purely through sibilance and onomatopeia (or however you spell it!).
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Re: language game

Postby dandelion on November 13th, 2016, 5:45 am 

BadgerJelly » June 30th, 2016, 6:48 am wrote:I am gong to try and convey something to you using onlh colours and prepositions. See if you can guess what it is.

Green opposite white. Red orange yellow, red orange yellow. Green opposite white. Blue over green, purple on green, white on green, yellow on green, orange on green, red on green. Blue over green. Green opposite white.

Also add yoru own attempts at communicating by these means.

Thank you


If, for example, I'm able to see different colour combinations of that dress, how would that be considered like this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dress
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Re: language game

Postby dandelion on December 4th, 2016, 6:13 am 

I wondered about the above for a few reasons. Some recent thread quoted mention of colour (and sound), “That azalea outside the window may look red to you, but in reality it has no color at all. The red comes from certain properties of the azalea that absorb some kinds of light and reflect other kinds of light, which are then received by the eye and transformed in our brains into a subjective experience of red…” (I’m not sure where the quote is from exactly, http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=31716&p=307828&hilit=azalea#p307828) and take such notions as at a level understood, while a lot of other considerations are already addressed here- http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=28569&hilit=dress . I think the example of the image of the dress may show not just that colour perception correspondence with physical phenomena may vary with relationships with contextual, physical change in image, but also that colour experience correspondence may vary aside from some physical change.

Possibly illustrating some of the former, are these images, in which change occurs with physically very different image including black circles -http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_cxmptAPYR-s/RwQkrJlUW0I/AAAAAAAABaM/TAixC5YThK4/s1600-h/cube1.jpg and http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_cxmptAPYR-s/RwQkrZlUW1I/AAAAAAAABaU/rnxx-IZRw44/s1600-h/cube2.jpg. The same image of the dress, instead, may be perceived by some as white/gold in keeping with a context that the foreground is lit with light of a certain colour, and a countering of this by subtracting that coloured light from experience. This may change as interpretation changes, a person seeing white/gold, may adjust context as in the example where a section is physically isolated, and contextually isolate the photographed dress from darker lighting influences to detect blue/brown instead, or consider other lighting to see cornflower blue/black etc., or also, this varies between people who interpret the image differently. In this way the dress image could be more like the duck/rabbit made famous by Wittgenstein, among other examples, but with colour.

Research suggests that amongst our evolutionarily close relatives, early developments in young can involve colour assignment. This may differ from vision of birds and other animals with some phylogenetically older colour detecting competences, which among other properties, can involve perception of more hues and better movement resolution, and possibly less amodal and polarising perception, than our colour vision provides. Compared with macaques in our branch, human vision seems to track consistency in movement better. Object recognition often tends to be an interpretation for such sorts of effects in human vision. Anyway, it may be that variation of perceived colour suggests considerations other than solely characteristics of the object, if that was some of the aim of some of the first post here.

Just to be clear, this may be different from physical variations. Say, iridescence seems associated with reflective interference and diffraction, and to some extent these properties may play some role in experience of the image but not via physical change. And cuttlefish colour changes, for example, (possibly detected by other, “colour-blind” cuttlefish with focus change) seem to correspond with physical change.

Maybe a little interesting here would be mention of, e.g., Churchland’s chimerical colours, colours experienced but concerning objects less. Re the first post, it could be interesting to consider what might be communicated using colours like hyperbolic orange and stygian blue :)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Ijr ... ge&f=false
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... ode=cphp20
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Re: language game

Postby dandelion on December 4th, 2016, 12:29 pm 

^ Too late to edit, but should have written "track constancy of colour, etc., bound with shape or volume in movement better" or something like that.
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Re: language game

Postby dandelion on December 9th, 2016, 1:57 pm 

Some more references for the above, a relevant page translation of Wittgenstein’s Philosophical Investigations and an example of research-
http://www.janestep.com/wp-content/uplo ... oodles.jpg
http://infantcognition.tamu.edu/files/2 ... .-1999.pdf
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Re: language game

Postby dandelion on December 11th, 2016, 11:06 am 

Regarding the answer to the colour description I gave in one of the posts, with orange and white under green in blue, or something like that- it wasn’t very well thought out- but I’d had something like this in mind-
https://thumb9.shutterstock.com/display ... 994606.jpg
http://www.henri-matisse.net/paintings/bga.html
http://www.cichlidlovers.com/a-fire-fish-albino.JPG
Set somewhere like this-
http://www.jenniferlynking.com/wp-conte ... 0_-365.jpg
http://www.musee-orangerie.fr/en/article/set-orangerie
So I was thinking of some colour relativity, better conveyed by the Impressionists, e.g.,
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gpP ... ty&f=false

Just some philosophical concerns with colour constancy- https://philpapers.org/archive/FOSDCC
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