Pornography.

[Eighty]

Is America a sex-driven, sex-based society?

Has modern music, movies, and culture been changed by the influence of pornography?

I ask this because most modern music contains numerous sexual innuendos, more so than I can ever remember, many of the movies in theaters today include many sexual references, scenes, and innuendos, or they are based upon sex. TV it seems has also been heavily influenced by the increasing popularity of pornography; many of today's "family" shows on the larger networks reflect this influence.

If you are an internet user, chances are pretty good you have come across porn, or sex-related material either intentionally, or accidentally.

Does teen-pregnancy, or abortion reflect a growing influence of sex in today's culture, and is pornography behind any of these trends?

[wolfhnd]

Pornography or porn is the explicit portrayal of sexual subject matter for the purposes of sexual arousal and erotic satisfaction.

The word is similar to the modern Greek πορνογραφία (pornographia), which derives from the Greek words πόρνη (pornē, "prostitute" and pornea, "prostitution"), and γράφειν (graphein, "to write or to record," derived meaning "illustration,"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography#Etymology

Please note that the definition does not include nudity or depiction of sex acts. So what is porn? Are the girls in Sports Illustrated swim suit edition pornography? Are classical nudes pornography? The best answer is that it is pornography if you think it is because what provokes sexual arousal and erotic satisfaction vary widely between individuals. People enjoy sex and with or without the pornography produced for profit or art most people will mentally construct their own erotic images and stories. That leads me to question the real impact of pornography that is produced for distribution and want to focus on the ethics of sexual satisfaction in general and just lump pornography into a more general concept of what sexual behavior is healthy and socially constructive.

[Terry]

The desire for sex is the eternal flame for life. It is so basic and instinctive for all cultures in the world. In fact, sex gives us the most complex and contrast feeling that can invoke totally opposed emotions. It is just common for sex to become an element in the media to catch the attention of people. Nature don't judge for good sex and bad sex. Only we make it so.

[Lomax]

Society doesn't watch pornography; individuals do, and I don't think it would be scientific to lump them all together.

Anyway, I only know of two common effects caused by pornography viewership - one good, one bad (and I think the good outweighs the bad). The British Journal of Urology International found that, while 85% of women are satisfied with the size of their partner's penis, only 45% of men are satisfied with their own. The journal drew a link between this and pornography viewing.

However: if I remember right from that Penn and Teller episode, the USA states with higher pornography ratings also have lower incidence of rape.

[Eighty]

I should clarify more.

Is America a sex-based society? And if so, is pornography a result of this, or a cause? If yes, is being a sex-based, or sex-driven society a good thing or a bad thing?

I see sexuality in everything from music, to TV, movies, even video-games, and if its invading every sector of society, or most sectors, what will be the result of living in a hyper-sexual society?

What happened to "keep it in your pants?"

[Forest_Dump]

I have to admit I pay far less attention to porn, etc., than I did when I was younger. Frankly I don't think it is really an issue except to 15 year olds. The only kind I think should be paid attention to is kiddie porn or the violent stuff.

[çağla]

Do you mean "Do the entertainment industries use sex in marketing and promoting their products?"?

[Eighty]

I was hoping for a discussion centered around sex, and its power used in today's industries and markets, and the subsequent effect it has on/in society.

Pornography being a good topic I think, as it possibly the offspring of sexual motivation as a result of a collection of naturally progressive(?) ideals, or it might be supposed to be a cause of the movement of widespread openness of sexuality in society.

Either or, I am really interested in a discussion around it, especially seeing the many feminist discussions currently at bat.

[AmbivalentOne]

I am in two minds on this issue. However, since most of the posts seems to be down-playing the role of porn in shaping social norms, I thought I’d advocate for the devil.

I was listening to a TV interview with Melinda Tankard Reist who wrote a book called Pornification. I haven’t read the book, nor do I think I will find time to do so, but most of the claims she made in the interview resonate with my own observations. I can’t quote her, but this is my possibly-gross-misrepresentation of what she was saying…

The internet has made hardcore porn (if you want me define that term I can, but not sure if it’s appropriate for this site) readily available, and the vast majority of young males now make their first acquaintance with sex from watching porn. She claimed that the aesthetic qualities of porn have colonized young men’s ideas of how sex should be done. The way sex is performed in porn is dictated by the needs of the camera to get good “angles” of the penetration. This equates to a lot of separation between the bodies so that the penetration can be seen. There is no hugging or close embracing in porn, because the “observer” can’t see anything. She also expressed alarm at the disproprtionate amount of aggresive, confrontational sex in porn.

I found her argument interesting because, while she displayed feminist leanings and referred to Germaine Greer, her primary interest seemed to be the colonisation of male sexuality, rather than the exploitation of women. I should also warn that apparently she is a pro-lifer/anti-choicer, which is not a position I wish to affiliate myself with.

[Eighty]

I am in two minds on this issue. However, since most of the posts seems to be down-playing the role of porn in shaping social norms, I thought I’d advocate for the devil.

I was listening to a TV interview with Melinda Tankard Reist who wrote a book called Pornification. I haven’t read the book, nor do I think I will find time to do so, but most of the claims she made in the interview resonate with my own observations. I can’t quote her, but this is my possibly-gross-misrepresentation of what she was saying…

The internet has made hardcore porn (if you want me define that term I can, but not sure if it’s appropriate for this site) readily available, and the vast majority of young males now make their first acquaintance with sex from watching porn. She claimed that the aesthetic qualities of porn have colonized young men’s ideas of how sex should be done. The way sex is performed in porn is dictated by the needs of the camera to get good “angles” of the penetration. This equates to a lot of separation between the bodies so that the penetration can be seen. There is no hugging or close embracing in porn, because the “observer” can’t see anything. She also expressed alarm at the disproprtionate amount of aggresive, confrontational sex in porn.

I found her argument interesting because, while she displayed feminist leanings and referred to Germaine Greer, her primary interest seemed to be the colonisation of male sexuality, rather than the exploitation of women. I should also warn that apparently she is a pro-lifer/anti-choicer, which is not a position I wish to affiliate myself with.

Hey AmbivalentOne.

Your reply is very interesting, I have heard similar opinions, mostly from women on this subject lately.
Do you think there is a lack or loss of respect when an individual watches hardcore porn, or do you think there is a loss of respect among individuals who perform sex without the emotional attachment that is usually indicated by hugging, touching, etc?

Personally, I think there is a loss of respect in both angles, because simply doing the deed, without an emotional attachment/connection other than lust, is, in my mind, very derogatory. It's as if one is using the other for 'high'; to find a replacement for an addiction to something.

[Eighty]

I was hoping for a discussion centered around sex, and its power used in today's industries and markets, and the subsequent effect it has on/in society.

Pornography being a good topic I think, as it possibly the offspring of sexual motivation as a result of a collection of naturally progressive(?) ideals, or it might be supposed to be a cause of the movement of widespread openness of sexuality in society.

Either or, I am really interested in a discussion around it, especially seeing the many feminist discussions currently at bat.

Well there is loads of literature out there around this rather large topic. I'll leave you to do your own leg work on it all. I might drop some links as I think of them or come across them.

Even though I'm not sure what direction you want to go with this, I'll start with this - Internet Porn Has Nothing to Do With the Major Social Trends Affecting Sex and Marriage

Outsourcing Porn

Thanks mtbturtle,

but what I am hoping to get it here is a conversation, as opposed to a Google web search. I want to know everyone's opinion on the matter and hopefully it evolves into a healthy discussion.

I am not referring to pornography only; I am interested in the influence sex (porn, erotica, innuendo's, exploitation, lust, etc) has on society.

We see possible influences in fashion, music, cinema, language, plays, school, books, TV, art, and all over the liberal studies realms. It would be great to see everyone's opinions, including your own!

[CanadysPeak]

Eighty,

I can't think of an area of life where sex, be it in almost any form, is not ever-present. Everyone I've ever met, so far as I could tell, enjoyed, needed, wanted, or fantasized about sex. It all seems a natural part of our existence, even that nutty version where two people have their avatars have sex online. Men seem to be more visual; we'll read or look at pornography, whether a copy of Betty Boop's Greatest Adventures or just scantily clad cheerleaders. So long as we use no force or fraud (and, of course, making certain all parties are consenting adults) in any of our sexual proclivities, I think it healthy and fun.

CP
"A dirty mind is a joy forever."

[Eighty]

Eighty,

I can't think of an area of life where sex, be it in almost any form, is not ever-present. Everyone I've ever met, so far as I could tell, enjoyed, needed, wanted, or fantasized about sex. It all seems a natural part of our existence, even that nutty version where two people have their avatars have sex online. Men seem to be more visual; we'll read or look at pornography, whether a copy of Betty Boop's Greatest Adventures or just scantily clad cheerleaders. So long as we use no force or fraud (and, of course, making certain all parties are consenting adults) in any of our sexual proclivities, I think it healthy and fun.

CP
"A dirty mind is a joy forever."

Right,

but are there limits to sex? Should there be a limit as to how sexual popular lore, style, fashion, music, TV, books, etc should be? Should it be restricted in some area (i.e. major broadcasters, internet providers, etc)?


Do you think sexual expression should be totally uninhibited? How much exposure to sex, and related themes is ok for the general populace? Are there any repercussions to unrestricted exposure to certain sexual themes/innuendos?

[AmbivalentOne]

Your reply is very interesting, I have heard similar opinions, mostly from women on this subject lately.
Do you think there is a lack or loss of respect when an individual watches hardcore porn, or do you think there is a loss of respect among individuals who perform sex without the emotional attachment that is usually indicated by hugging, touching, etc?

Haha, yeah I am a bit of a closet feminist. The commoditisation of women is certainly an issue, but I think pornography probably has its biggest impact on its consumers, who are mainly men. This kind of turns the exploitation argument on its head – if it turns out that their consumption of pornography negatively impacts upon their sex-life, then perhaps the ‘victims’ of porn are actually men.

I don’t really know what to say about the loss of respect issue. There probably is a relation between respect and emotional connection. It seems intuitive that the more emotionally connected you are to X, the more respect you have for X. But I’m not sure if lacking emotional connection is necessarily tied to lacking respect, at least not below a certain basic level. There are plenty of people who I have no connection with, but who I nevertheless have plenty of respect for.

By the way, I consider myself very liberal when it comes to sexuality. I don’t have a problem with sex as a recreational pursuit with no emotional commitment. But I believe sexual choices should always be consensual, and I fear that the proliferation of porn may distort our judgement.

I see porn as an extreme example of a wider issue – to what extent do mediated representations of reality (porn, television, newspapers etc) affect the way reality is actually experienced by its consumers. There’s a youtube interview with Ted Bundy where he basically claims his crimes grew from his desire for more & more extreme pornography, eventually culminating in the only escalation left – imposing his fantasies on real people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doADL4-1 ... re=related

On the other hand, our introduction to the world of sexuality has always been mediated to some extent, by our older siblings or whoever gave us the lowdown on what to expect from sex. We then carry their assumptions about sex into our first sexual experience, acting out the ‘script’ on our unsuspecting partner. I guess the argument rests on whether the impact of porn is qualitatively different from the impact of older forms of cultural initiation. Not an argument likely to be settled anytime soon...

[CanadysPeak]

Right,

but are there limits to sex? Should there be a limit as to how sexual popular lore, style, fashion, music, TV, books, etc should be? Should it be restricted in some area (i.e. major broadcasters, internet providers, etc)?


Do you think sexual expression should be totally uninhibited? How much exposure to sex, and related themes is ok for the general populace? Are there any repercussions to unrestricted exposure to certain sexual themes/innuendos?

Not much. Violence pedophilia, and beastiality are out in my book. Otherwise, if you like it, watch it; if you don't, don't. Your kid shouldn't have unfettered access to the internet - there are far worse things than porn films out there.

For my perspective, I remember the furor over Lady Chatterly's Lover. The authorities were sure it was the end of civilization. I've seen racier stuff on a PBS cooking show ("Jacques! No more wine for you.")

[Eighty]

I remember when Claridges, in its time the best hotel in London, prohibited women wearing trousers from entering the hotel. The mini skirt did bring with it a sexual revolution regarding women and their role in society.

But I think Eighty has something else in mind, though. Sexuality is perhaps more accepted in the media and public alike today than before. Innuendos, touching, clothing and body language are 'weapons' each one of us has used from time to time. This is done according to the social scene one frequents.

It is interesting that Canadys referred to 'Lady Chatterly's Lover'. It was written in 1928, no one dared print the book in the UK until 1960. I remember peeking through it when no one was around. But looking back on it, I think my parents left the book lying around as part of our sexual education.

Times have changed. Thank goodness. I don't see any need for restricting sexual content, unless it concerns children or is of a violent nature. Isn't an improvement that the individual can decide what to watch and not what 'big brother' decides is adequate?

What are your ideas on the subject, Eighty?

I'm a fairly conservative guy and naturally so of my conservative nature I am against excessive sexual references and sex portrayed in any form of media outlet (radio, TV, music, movies, etc.)... note that I said 'excessive', I am not against PDA by any means, so long as it is within a respectable degree.

I look at things from as a being strictly black and white, this is how I filter and process the information around me. If we look at excessive sexual references in music today (Katy Perry, Black Eyed Peas, Kanye West, Justin Timberlake, Lady Gaga, etc), what benefit do we as individuals obtain from it? What do we gain collectively as a society? Well, arguably music is for enjoyment and pleasure so it's all about material gratification, right? Not so much! Music was once a privileged activity that people engaged in, it was moving, reflective, and motivating... it still is... but there is a huge degree of separation unlike any time in history now.

Music is an expression of ones collective thoughts, emotions, whatever, but if the core of a persons music is centered around lust, and sexual desire and accomplishment what good is it to me? It's not! Nor would it be good for my kids (if I had any). I wouldn't want my kids learning about the many sexual positions and partners they should have in life when that is not important. I want to them to value education, respect, honor, and integrity first and foremost, not whether or not they bedded multiple people at the same time or even of the same sex.

Sex is important, but it is not so important that I want it on my mind all the time. Why can't I watch a good detective show without all the sex? Sex is a sacred activity not something to be taken for granted and perverted!

The Romans, among the many ancient civilizations had a very 'sophisticated' sexual society. Men with boys, women with girls, and all would join together in holy orgies to enjoy each others bodies during what was considered the 'pinnacle' of Roman-Greco-society. Well they should have focused on their government and people's well being instead.

Why would anyone want to become a scientist or engineer when everything around them is sexually ethnocentric? It's not 'cool' in today's society to be an engineer, accountant, marketing manager, etc. What is cool is genital-stimulating media and fake flashy stones.

Maybe this it's all inevitable but I don't see how any civilization can advance so long as sex is the status of power. No civilization has ever reigned supreme for very long so long as sexual desire/power was the top of society's social pyramid.

[AmbivalentOne]

Lady Chatterley’s lover and mini-skirts? I think these are really outdated arguments. There is plenty of work to be done in sexual politics, but Eighty’s OP was about PORN.

We don’t need to keep rebelling against Victorian sexuality, that era is (thankfully) long dead. I am more interested in what happens when kids think that sex looks like “Facial Humiliation 3” or some other such title. Censorship is also an irrelevant issue – we are stuck with this stuff now, the only question is what sort of a society is it leading to? Sometimes the pendulum swings too far.

It reminds me of the arguments from baby boomers defending NWA and Ice-T because Elvis Presley was considered dangerous in his own time. While I have plenty of sympathy for relativistic epistemologies, I do think it is possible to see a difference between “One less b***h” and... Actually I can’t think of any Elvis songs.

[CanadysPeak]

Lady Chatterley’s lover and mini-skirts? I think these are really outdated arguments. There is plenty of work to be done in sexual politics, but Eighty’s OP was about PORN.

We don’t need to keep rebelling against Victorian sexuality, that era is (thankfully) long dead. I am more interested in what happens when kids think that sex looks like “Facial Humiliation 3” or some other such title. Censorship is also an irrelevant issue – we are stuck with this stuff now, the only question is what sort of a society is it leading to? Sometimes the pendulum swings too far.

It reminds me of the arguments from baby boomers defending NWA and Ice-T because Elvis Presley was considered dangerous in his own time. While I have plenty of sympathy for relativistic epistemologies, I do think it is possible to see a difference between “One less b***h” and... Actually I can’t think of any Elvis songs.

When I brought up Lady Chatterly's Lover, I began with the phrase, "For my perspective, . . ." I am neither a Baby Boomer nor Victorian. I simply provided my opinion together with one of the experiences that led to that opinion.

If you know no Elvis songs, you might want to fix that. Listen to Kentucky Rain and Peace in the Valley. NWA will never sing anything like those.

[Paralith]

Eighty,

You said that you wanted a conversation and not an afternoon trolling the internet for facts, but you're throwing out statements left and right in support of your viewpoint, and I'm not sure how many of those statements really are true.

How sure are we that the only, or at least the primary cause of the fall of the Roman empire was because they were ok with people having orgy parties?

How many children growing up today, if asked, would say they want to be a member of the "genital-stimulating media", versus how many would say they want to be - well, anything else? And how different are these numbers, really, from past decades?

How many people, honestly, think sex is the reigning status symbol of power? Are all those rich old white men who rule the world from their positions in the tops of government and as CEO's a multi billion dollar companies, only there because they're sexy? Sometimes I think we forget how "powerful" a pop musician or an actor is compared to the people in the world with real power and money. How much money is Katy Perry worth? How much money is the CEO of Bank of America worth? How much money is Steve Ballmer worth? One of these people is worth 18 million, another is worth 15 billion. I'll let you figure out which is which.

And before you call me out on this, yes, more teenagers know who Katy Perry is than know who Steve Ballmer is, or even care. I'm willing to throw that out there without actually taking a survey. But you seem to be worried that by listening to Katy Perry, teenagers will think sex is the only important thing in life. And, well, they're teenagers. They might think that with or without Katy's help. But does that really mean they are doomed to never become functioning, contributing adults? That Katy Perry is going to usher in the collapse of our entire society?

I'm not saying there aren't problems with the way sex is portrayed in popular (and other) media, but I'm mostly in mtb's camp on what the problems are. But I'm not quite getting this urgent concern you seem to have about the imminent dangers of societal collapse.

[CanadysPeak]

I have this neat Yoga T-shirt. It's a sort of paste-up of old Greek art. You have to stand really, really near to see that most of it is pornographic. Yet, society has somehow persevered these two millenia. There's happy porn and explotive porn. Explotive is bad.

[Forest_Dump]

Not that I am taking a side in this but that old Greek society didn't persevere for these last two millennia.

[wolfhnd]

that old Greek society didn't persevere for these last two millennia.

That is debatable Forest as some of the culture is very much alive.

http://www.ancientgreekonline.com/Iliad/Iliad1_1-52.htm

As for Greek attitudes toward the pornographic well maybe it's best that not all things ancient Greek survived.

http://human-stupidity.com/wp-content/u ... reece1.jpg

[CanadysPeak]

Forest,

Since you are not known to be thick, I think you were (correctly, but pedantically) pointing out that I had omitted several steps in my point. The values - rational thought and argument, democracy, a respect for learning, the use of math - survived, though not as Grecian values alone. Grecian society was incorporated into other societies and, of course, those evolved somewhat through the ages.

[NORMLme]

The whole world is driven by sex, my man! Porn just happens to be a result of some people finding out it’s fun to watch as well. :P Your question sounds a lot like mine when I still believed in the christian god. (I assume you do?) I was so concerned with my oppressed feelings about sex and didn’t stop to think that all this SEX we see on the media is them trying to move at the pace our society. Not everyone believes in religion and therefore don’t think it’s such an awful thing to look at porn. Maybe your beliefs (that I assume you still have) are holding you back from seeing what’s really going on?

[Forest_Dump]

Hmmm. A forgotten thread. Old business first (but without context since I am only looking at three posts on this page):

That is debatable Forest as some of the culture is very much alive.

Sure as some vestiges of Shakespearean culture and even more of Victorian culture but:

The values - rational thought and argument, democracy, a respect for learning, the use of math - survived, though not as Grecian values alone. Grecian society was incorporated into other societies and, of course, those evolved somewhat through the ages.

I admit to paradoxical thinking on some things so that while I accept that some norms and mores can survive for very long periods of time (could I add the hobbies of hunting and fishing? the warrior skills of just shooting, archery, the javelin or shot put, etc.?) I also subscribe to "agency" and "structuration" theories (of Giddens and Bourdieu) in that each person never fully understands the worlds of the past or even the worlds of the people closest to them, but literally makes things up, including the society around them, as they go and to the best of their limited understandings and capacities. So in some ways we have certainly inherited values, etc., from the Greeks but in other ways that world never really existed and has simply been reinvented and reinterpreted through time in different ways in different contexts. Why else has there never been any final word on Plato, Aristotle, etc? Or for that matter Shakespeare?

The whole world is driven by sex, my man! Porn just happens to be a result of some people finding out it’s fun to watch as well. :P Your question sounds a lot like mine when I still believed in the christian god. (I assume you do?) I was so concerned with my oppressed feelings about sex and didn’t stop to think that all this SEX we see on the media is them trying to move at the pace our society. Not everyone believes in religion and therefore don’t think it’s such an awful thing to look at porn. Maybe your beliefs (that I assume you still have) are holding you back from seeing what’s really going on?

Well, I don't believe in the Christian god (I am a reverent agnostic) and I lost interest in porn many years ago (no substitute for the real thing - in fact the last time I was in a strip joint was in the early 1990s and even then reluctantly). So my appetite for the real thing has not diminished over the years. However, if you want porn, one place to start looking might be the Song of Solomon from the Bible. And it was declared porn once in the American south when presented to people out of context. I sometimes wonder how prudish Baptist types view that part of the Bible particularly when it was written by a guy with 400 wives and 800 concubines.

[NORMLme]

oh no, sorry. I was speaking to Eighty when I assumed about his religious beliefs. From personal experience I found myself comfortable with talking AND experiencing sex the day I realized for myself that god is something made up from man. that's why I think that (if 80 is religious) him being opressed by his beliefs may be a major contrabution to his not understanding of seeing more nudity now days.

[Louis_B]

Apart from kiddie fiddlers, animal abuse and the like, I think porn is a natural and healthy experssion of out collectively exuberant love of getting down and dirty with a member of the opposite sex (unless you're gay). Humans seem to be the only species i know of that feeld any kind of shame, and I think this is drummed into us at an early age. If a young girl is told masturbating is wrong, her later boyfriend tells her its sexy, and as an adult is told its cool, then what the lell are people supposed to think? no wonder people get confused, It's not their fault, It's all the mixed messages.

[Eighty]

The whole world is driven by sex, my man! Porn just happens to be a result of some people finding out it’s fun to watch as well. :P Your question sounds a lot like mine when I still believed in the christian god. (I assume you do?) I was so concerned with my oppressed feelings about sex and didn’t stop to think that all this SEX we see on the media is them trying to move at the pace our society. Not everyone believes in religion and therefore don’t think it’s such an awful thing to look at porn. Maybe your beliefs (that I assume you still have) are holding you back from seeing what’s really going on?

You're right that my beliefs prohibit me from watching porn.

There is a correlation between religiosity and sexual abstainment, or at least from certain sexual practices.

I don't think pornography is good in anyway. If you are dating someone, engaged, or married, where does one draw the line for cheating? Do you think it is cheating if you're viewing pornography while you're engaged, married, dating someone? And why, or why not?

I personally feel a tremendous amount of guilt and anxiety when I do and it stems from my religious beliefs telling me that it is wrong. I view sex as something that should not be taken for granted, and something that is special. If I were to jerk off all the time with all religious notions ignored, I would feel as though I were disrespecting my girlfriend, and just that I were a weak person.

If I cannot control myself when faced with lust, what kind of person am I? Will I fail to control myself in other situations? If I consistently give in to lust, will I seek to justify it by calling myself a liberalized and free'd individual? If so, what have I gained? I like to think of abstaining from it as a way to express myself and free myself from the rest of society, in a way I am expressing myself as a man; I say "I am a man; I know the temptation is there but I have the strength to stop it, ignore it, and withdraw from it."

And among all other things, pornography seems like a fantastic way to objectify a person. Turning them into an icon to be lusted after rather than respected. Maybe I'll start viewing women as a sexual outlets as opposed to unique, beautiful individuals, maybe that will affect the way I treat them, turning them from princesses in my eyes (not all of them, there are b-words out there!), into nothing more than boobs and butts.

[Eighty]

Apart from kiddie fiddlers, animal abuse and the like, I think porn is a natural and healthy experssion of out collectively exuberant love of getting down and dirty with a member of the opposite sex (unless you're gay). Humans seem to be the only species i know of that feeld any kind of shame, and I think this is drummed into us at an early age. If a young girl is told masturbating is wrong, her later boyfriend tells her its sexy, and as an adult is told its cool, then what the lell are people supposed to think? no wonder people get confused, It's not their fault, It's all the mixed messages.

I would like to address a great point you made: "Humans seem to be the only species i know of that feeld any kind of shame, and I think this is drummed into us at an early age"

Perhaps there is a correlation to developed consciousness? I'm not saying shame is incessantly good, but some cases perhaps there is a biological benefit to it.

Masturbating, porn, and sex were always big no-no's growing up in my house, which I think was good because a lot of my friends ended up pregnant or getting their girlfriends preggo. Perhaps it's not very common, but it's still a risk, now they're left with unwanted children.

[CanadysPeak]

It certainly seems to me that sexual interest is healthy and pleasurable. For men, visual stimulation often plays a significant role. I don't know if that's innate or learned, or a mixture, but it seems pretty universal. Sometimes it can turn into an obsession (as in whatever it is they do on the tv shows where women strip down and "catfight" over some worthless guy), but it can also be a part of a normal life. Many years ago, when I was attempting my Last Hurrah as a father, I wound up in a fertility clinic. Since they eschewed the old bull breeder trick of an electric prod up the anus, I asked them how they would obtain my sample. A blase technician handed me a Playboy and collection bottle, and pointed to the bathroom. My wife sat and waited. There was no harm to our relationship from my brief dalliance with "Miss April".