Transgender Gender Expression?

[o7-12q]

Why do you think so many transgender individuals express extreme, surreal versions of the gender they feel they are? I’m not talking about cross dressers – that is about show, & has a larger emotional &/or illustrative value. Do you think it is because they were on the wrong end of the extreme gender their body developed into, so need to go to the extreme the other way to make up for it?

I might have a tiny bit of understanding as I was a tomboy growing up. I know that isn’t at all the same thing – as I still identified as female genetically & physically, just with socially masculine interests (math, science, sports, … etc). I’d like to know why the transgender person feels the need to go to extremes in the outer expression of their gender identity.

[Jordan]

Unfortunately with zero experience or education in this area I can't offer much in the way of a considered reply to what is an interesting issue. I'm not sure what you mean by extreme exactly but I assume you mean a polar opposite to their biological make-up. It may be a reinforcement issue, as much for themselves as for others. By portraying the opposite with their appearance and behaviours in such a way they avoid any confusion or middle ground which could be deemed as uncertainty.

Our identity, how we perceive ourselves and how everyone else views us is central to our personal existence. For that reason I think transgender individuals are doing what all humans do (regardless of age, sex, race etc.) seeking to better understand themselves, consolidate that identity and living with that image.

[o7-12q]

Thanks for your reply Jordan.

I started this thread out of curiosity for a larger issue – people around the world are Transgender, and it seems there is a trend toward extreme (maybe outdated might be more accurate) expressions of their opposing gender – for example, m2f people often wear a lot of makeup, very fem dresses & shoes, the material of their clothes is different than modern style, they display mannerisms & gestures that would be more appropriate of women in the 50’s & 60’s American era.

This could just be because they need the outdated style to cover up their masculine features. They want to be seen as F, so must use a lot of devices to be F. However, they must know that there are genetic F’s that have masculine features … and often are misjudged as being homosexual. Any flavor of F or M come in all shapes & sizes. I wish we could create an environment where self-acceptance could be more prevalent. The personality of the person could flow out much easier … less forced via clothing & makeup … if we could leave out outsides alone and concentrate on our insides. A genetic girl with masculine features probably has the same issues as m2f transgender individuals. However, I doubt they ever get together in the same social circles to talk about these things.

I saw a piece on the Eastern World’s transgender community – they also wear a lot of makeup, wear outdated/traditional dress (very few have a modern female style … which the modern style is very variable with plenty of options). I just wonder why they often express an outdated style, rather a more modern one?

Along similar lines – the Eastern World often copies American style with their own Eastern interpretation added to it (i.e., emo, goth, punk, etc) … and the West copies Eastern style with our own added flare (i.e., Asian tats, shirt prints, quotes, etc).

Could Transgender individuals have an interpretation issue? Maybe our societies need to have more education on gender expression. There isn’t a right or wrong way to express gender ‘style’, but the choices people make are interesting. The reason for these choices might help give us more insight into the culture.

[neuro]

My impression is that the question has two - not fully independent - aspects:

One is "quantitative", i.e. a question of "intensity" - the other is a "qualitative" one.

Sexual identity certainly is a much more central and pervasive issue for transgenders, and in general for people who need / have needed to face difficult choices and hard times in order to reach an acceptable (for them) gender/sexual status.

Thus, I wouldn't be surprised if they tended to underscore their gender identity, more markedly than people who have had no problems with their gender identity (in accepting it and/or in seing it accepted by others). This as far as the "quantitative" aspect is concerned, and the tendency to more intensely remark one's gender identity, possibly to a point that it appears "extreme" to others.

The second aspect, the qualitative one, certainly is interesting under the cultural point of view. As o7-12q proposes, the choice of outdated gender models might be related to how strongly M/F stereotypes are rooted in current culture; generally, it seems to me that older stereotypes are stronger, more directly associated and evocative of masculinity /femininity, and this may offer a way to more intensely remark - as said above - one's gender identity.

[mtbturtle]

Why do you think so many transgender individuals express extreme, surreal versions of the gender they feel they are? I’m not talking about cross dressers – that is about show, & has a larger emotional &/or illustrative value. Do you think it is because they were on the wrong end of the extreme gender their body developed into, so need to go to the extreme the other way to make up for it?

I might have a tiny bit of understanding as I was a tomboy growing up. I know that isn’t at all the same thing – as I still identified as female genetically & physically, just with socially masculine interests (math, science, sports, … etc). I’d like to know why the transgender person feels the need to go to extremes in the outer expression of their gender identity.

hi o7-12q,

I'm not sure what you mean by expressing extreme versions of gender or that they do express mannerism more appropriate for past generations - not anymore than a lot most other women.

Anyway, have you asked any about if/why they feel this need? surely, there must be something on the web about this.

[o7-12q]

I'm not sure what you mean by expressing extreme versions of gender or that they do express mannerism more appropriate for past generations - not anymore than a lot most other women.

Anyway, have you asked any about if/why they feel this need? surely, there must be something on the web about this.

By extreme ... the focus seems to be an interpretation issue where female = feminine, dresses, heals, makeup, ... just a lot of outer expressions of everything fem. But there are genetic females that are not fem, yet still celebrate having 2 X chromosomes. Why is it that m2f transgender individuals, usually go to the extreme end of the female scale?

I'm a genetic female, with fem features, so never had issues with having to 'prove' my gender on the outside. My focus was on developing my mind, but in areas that were unconventional subjects for females (in my birth community in the 90's & early 2000's, but not unusual in the US as a whole ... im from a cult-y religious community). I got caught up in proving my interest in all things science, and sometimes failed to focus on the specific areas where my real talents were.

I'm wondering if it is at all possible that m2f transgender individuals get so caught up in trying to prove their fem-ness, they lose sight of the spectrum of femininity that actually exists -- they don't need to go to extremes (lots of makeup, heals, flowy dresses, etc) as there is a large range of fem intensity. I have a hard time believing that ALL m2f individuals are really so extreme fem (a lot probably are, but all?). They may be getting caught up in the outside struggles, & fail to truly express their real self ... because maybe it isn't as fem, and they can't prove their fem nature in jeans & a tshirt.

Of course i haven't met or seen all transgender individuals, and my limited experiences could be misguided. That is why i posed this question to others outside the trans community to get the perspective of more observers. I don't feel comfortable crashing a trans community forum. I don't think i'd be received very well, and it might seem as if my curiosity is inappropriate. I have a minor anthropology interest, and just as some may study ancient cultures, i have an interest in modern fringe cultures, and the impressions/misconceptions... of them on the majority.

[mtbturtle]

yah but you can always read around and see what's there without "crashing".

[Forest_Dump]

I have a minor anthropology interest, and just as some may study ancient cultures, i have an interest in modern fringe cultures, and the impressions/misconceptions... of them on the majority.

There has been a growing "queer anthropology" (although you have to watch that - the term has also been used to describe anthropologists who end up in other disciplines such as "modern cultural studies" - just to confuse things). If you have access to a good university library, you can check in the "Annual Review of Anthropology" as well as the journals Current Anthropology and American Anthropologist. I know there have been good papers in all of these on this topic for at least the last 10 years.

[o7-12q]

How come so few are willing to give their point of view on this? I'm just asking for personal thoughts & some reasonable theories among people educated (formally or informally) in the 'social sciences'. This isn't a lazy way to get answers -- I'm not looking for research material. This is for general discussion like any other topic posted. What is it about this topic that scares people from giving an opinion?

This is an interesting addition to the discussion.

[Lomax]

How come so few are willing to give their point of view on this?

Maybe that problem is that most of us just don't know many transgender people. I only know two, as far as I can think.

Assuming the premise to be true then, I can have a stab: perhaps it's that until the gender transformation they felt unable to fully express their sexuality, so they're enjoying this new liberty, and also making up for lost time. Perhaps they want to show people they're committed to the cause (because, after all, alot of people show skepticism toward gender transformation). My only other suggestion is that it's only the really feminine guys and really masculine girls who feel compelled to get the operation in the first place; but I think that's probably not the case, because sometimes it's simple dissatisfaction with their biology, from what I've read.

These are all only conjectures; I don't know whether any of them true, and sadly I'm quite ignorant and ill-researched in this issue.

[Ursa Minimus]

...because sometimes it's simple dissatisfaction with their biology, from what I've read.

Exactly correct. To get sexual reassignment surgery a person goes through a VERY comprehensive evaluation process. No reputable surgeon is going to do the surgery unless they are convinced the person will benefit. And that is only the case if the person is having issues with their sex (biological), not their gender (social performance what people think of as masculine or feminine behaviors).

And research does show that people are much better off after the surgery than before. If anyone cares to read some abstracts: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=pos ... tal+health

If it wasn't about a perceived mismatch between body and identity, then post surgery problems would still persist. Since the core problems do not persist, since most people are more satisfied with their bodies and lives in general, since so few regret the surgery, I take that as solid proof that they felt a powerful mismatch between body and self that the surgery corrected.

As to why that powerful mismatch exists, I do not have any idea. But I do know that it is very different from being "feminine" as a male or "masculine" as a female. Plenty of fem gay men never want to be physically a woman, plenty of butch gay women never want to be physically a male. So I think it is clearly the case that feeling out of place in terms of gender expression is NOT at all the same as feeling out of place in one's physical body in terms of biological sex characteristics.

[mtbturtle]

Plenty of fem men never want to be a woman and plenty of butch women never want to be a man.

[CanadysPeak]

How come so few are willing to give their point of view on this? I'm just asking for personal thoughts & some reasonable theories among people educated (formally or informally) in the 'social sciences'. This isn't a lazy way to get answers -- I'm not looking for research material. This is for general discussion like any other topic posted. What is it about this topic that scares people from giving an opinion?

This is an interesting addition to the discussion.

I cannot answer for others, but I am uncomfortable speaking about, or in behalf of, a culture when I am not a member. What could I possibly know? Worse, how could I avoid offending the members of that culture. I am only qualified to speak when their culture intersects mine.