Concepts and implications of altruism bias and pathological

[wolfhnd]

http://www.pnas.org/content/110/Supplement_2/10408.full

The profound benefits of altruism in modern society are self-evident. However, the potential hurtful aspects of altruism have gone largely unrecognized in scientific inquiry. This is despite the fact that virtually all forms of altruism are associated with tradeoffs—some of enormous importance and sensitivity—and notwithstanding that examples of pathologies of altruism abound.

[Braininvat]

Have you seen some of those 10K walks for beast cancer? I mean, I've wondered if more of the chubby participants die of stroke or heart attack during the march than are saved from breast cancer by the raised funds.

Worst pathological altruism recently observed: someone makes a dumb joke that could be taken as not PC, then it gets put on social media, then 3 milion people shame-tweet that said joker is a racist sexist pedophile whatever monster, then joker loses their job and family, then kill themselves out of shame and grief. Social media shaming is becoming a leading contributor to suicide rate. See Jon Ronson's "So You've Been Publicly Shamed." Great gonzo journalism. And scary as hell.

[wolfhnd]

“Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.

“Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.

Saul D. Alinsky

It is no accident that the kind of relentless demonization we see comes on the heels of the sexual revolution, or that the form of the hedonism bears an uncanny resemblance to the theology that came out of the Frankfurt School.

There is a counter revolution coming. I see it emerging in people like Dave Rubin, Sam Harris and a growing number of fake news websites. Classical liberalism seems to be the crystal that the emerging ideology is forming around.

[Serpent]

Seems to me shaming isn't exactly a modern phenomenon. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259581264_The_history_of_shaming_punishments_and_public_exposure_in_penal_law_in_comparative_perspective_Western_Europe_and_East_Asia
Doubt it had much to do with altruism, for that matter.

[wolfhnd]

Seems to me shaming isn't exactly a modern phenomenon. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259581264_The_history_of_shaming_punishments_and_public_exposure_in_penal_law_in_comparative_perspective_Western_Europe_and_East_Asia
Doubt it had much to do with altruism, for that matter.

There is nothing new under the sun but you have to look at the nuances to trace the ideological roots. To be fair there are good and bad aspects to every ideology I just happened to want to move to a post ideology world.

[doogles]

The OP reminds me of the principle of encouraging boy scouts to do a good deed every day. So one day a boy scout decided to conform to the principle and helped a little old lady across a road. It was a difficult job because she bucked and kicked all the way across.

In an abusive phone call later to the scout master, she objected to being man-handled across the other side because her business was on the side of the road she was on.

I also like the following old one where an ailing bird is helped. Moral 2 is the point of this tale apropos of this thread: A little bird was flying south for the winter. It was so cold the bird froze and fell to the ground into a large field. While he was lying there, a cow came by and dropped some dung on him. As the frozen bird lay there in the pile of cow dung, he began to realize how warm he was. The dung was actually thawing him out! He lay there all warm and happy, and soon began to sing for joy. A passing cat heard the bird singing and came to investigate. Following the sound, the cat discovered the bird under the pile of cow dung, and promptly dug him out and ate him.

Moral of the Story -
[1] Not everyone who s**ts on you is your enemy.
[2] Not everyone who gets you out of s**t is your friend.
[3] And when you're in deep s**t, it's best to keep your mouth shut!

[Serpent]

There is nothing new under the sun but you have to look at the nuances to trace the ideological roots.

The ideological root of shaming? It doesn't have a political or religious bias: it's practiced in every kind of culture, back to the the vulpine and simian. It's a less extreme version of exile or ostracism; depriving a wrong-doer of the benefits of social status and support, temporarily or permanently, depending on the severity of the infraction.
It is the punishment for non-conformity in all kinds of systems.

To be fair there are good and bad aspects to every ideology I just happened to want to move to a post ideology world.

It's not clear to me that altruism and the sexual revolution, demonization of individuals and liberalism all belong in the same ideological basket - and if so, how.
Nor can I see how a post-ideological world, how nation-states without constitutions, corporations without a mission statement, or communities of any size without a consistent moral basis for their laws and customs, would work. Not saying they couldn't, just that i don't see how.

[wolfhnd]

There is nothing new under the sun but you have to look at the nuances to trace the ideological roots.

The ideological root of shaming? It doesn't have a political or religious bias: it's practiced in every kind of culture, back to the the vulpine and simian. It's a less extreme version of exile or ostracism; depriving a wrong-doer of the benefits of social status and support, temporarily or permanently, depending on the severity of the infraction.
It is the punishment for non-conformity in all kinds of systems.

To be fair there are good and bad aspects to every ideology I just happened to want to move to a post ideology world.

It's not clear to me that altruism and the sexual revolution, demonization of individuals and liberalism all belong in the same ideological basket - and if so, how.
Nor can I see how a post-ideological world, how nation-states without constitutions, corporations without a mission statement, or communities of any size without a consistent moral basis for their laws and customs, would work. Not saying they couldn't, just that i don't see how.

I was replying to the shaming mentioned by braininvat which seems to come mostly from the left although doxing is gaining popularity among some "New Liberals".

As to a post ideological world I simply mean a world where people don't blindly adhere to a particular religious, political or cultural meme. For example there is the post modernist idea of multiculturalism that insanely insists that there are no objective means to evaluate something like female genital mutilation from outside the culture. Proving the point that the altruism toward a culture can harm the individuals in that culture by not insisting on rationality.

[Braininvat]

I can agree that altruism, being about human beings rather than ideologies, could include the condemnation of ideologies and cultures that deprive certain groups of people of basic rights. Shaming people who torture, kill, mutilate, isolate others could be a positive form of shaming and truly altruistic. I know of Muslims, people of conscience, who are speaking out against the brutal treatment of women by some sects. The question is often how far can you go with the condemnation and still be truly altruistic and not pathological. If you are gleefully advocating the murder of those whose bad actions you condemn, you may have become pathological in your altruism....harsh attacks can sometimes make the recipient more entrenched in their toxic beliefs, rather than shame them. You may have become ideological yourself and lost your sense that it's real people you are righteously opposing. A post-ideological world would certainly be less violent and possibly more focused on pragmatic solutions of human suffering. Like Serpent, it's hard for me to conceive of a world truly without some benign forms of ideology, e.g. the rule of law, or constitutional protection of minority groups in a society. I guess Wolf's idea, of government that isn't stuck on one set of myopic memes, might be a good start. Like "making the world safe for Democracy...." Hasn't always worked too well.

[wolfhnd]

Braininvat I can agree that the rule of law can be seen as a meme from an ideology but it can also be seen as common sense or founded on evidence and reason devoid of ideological or cultural trappings. That is not to say that anything is actual free of cultural bias only that we can conceive of it as being free of those trappings. No scientist no matter how well trained in the art of objectivity can be free of bias but evidence is the control that we have for logic.

[Serpent]

A community of human beings ruled by reason, making their laws and conducting transactions on a rational basis sounds good... in science fiction.... which usually turns out to be dystopian.

Rational people?

And even if you found some, they would still need an idea, a foundation, a principle on which to begin building their social structure. What is that core principle?

We hold these truths to be self-evident......
.... What are they?