When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

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When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on February 23rd, 2017, 10:11 pm 

The human eye is much like the lens of a camera, telescope or microscope. An image, as it passes through the lens, is projected onto the retina upside down and backwards. It is the brain's job to sort out and make sense of the image entering through the eye.

Most doctors agree that newborn babies see everything upside down for a "period of time" - but no one really knows for how long. Since gravity determines "up" and "down", wouldn't the baby have to be able to at least hold it's head up to begin to sort things out? And wouldn't left and right logically follow after that?
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on February 24th, 2017, 7:15 pm 

Here's a video explanation from Bill Nye the Science Guy:

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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby zetreque on February 25th, 2017, 2:21 am 

teacherman » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:11 pm wrote:Most doctors agree that newborn babies see everything upside down for a "period of time" - but no one really knows for how long. Since gravity determines "up" and "down", wouldn't the baby have to be able to at least hold it's head up to begin to sort things out? And wouldn't left and right logically follow after that?


I have never heard of this "seeing opposite and flipping" idea before. Do you have any studies to reference? I'm curious how they would even study this and figure it out. As of this moment I can't see how gravity would play as much of a role. When first born you touch your foot with your hand and that's "down" so I imagine you start off from the moment you open your eyes at seeing up and down despite the image being flipped.
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby Braininvat on February 25th, 2017, 9:50 am 

There are obstacles to "self-report" with newborns. Wonder if Neuro would have some insights.
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby Dave_Oblad on February 25th, 2017, 9:44 pm 

Hi all,

Makes sense to me that babies are pre-wired to see. It's just a matter of learning the relationship of what's being seen compared to our perception of what's outside us. Like the difference between a box and a sphere.

I think that a Mobile, hung over a crib, serves a very important service in training a baby's sense of vision, focus and depth perception. At that age we are just learning to understand visual patterns. Right side up and upside down isn't really relevant as far as the image on the back inside of our eyes is concerned.

Coordinated control of the eyes to track an object is important. Keeping an image centered in our vision is the start. We need that to pull out an increase in image details and learn to focus our eyes.

I disagree that a baby's vision flips at some stage.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on February 26th, 2017, 9:48 am 

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I agree with everything you say here - except the last line - "I disagree that a baby's vision flips at some stage."

I would say - "I disagree that ALL babies' vision flips at some stage." This is simply my opinion.

Again, thanks for your response..... I hope others weigh in, too.

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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby Dave_Oblad on February 26th, 2017, 11:49 pm 

Hi Teacherman,

The process of learning to see has nothing to do with the orientation of the retina image. Suppose at birth you could surgically spin both eyes 180 degrees. The image would still be upside down on the retina and thus the orientation of the retinal image relative to the babies head is not relevant. It never "flips" at any stage during development.

Now, if you surgically rotated the eyes much later in life.. then yes.. it would be seeing upside down until it adjusted to the new visual orientation and then flipped (hopefully).

Note: I knew a guy who was heavily cross eyed from birth and asked if he saw two two separate images like I get when I cross my eyes and he said no. He only see's one image like I do.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on February 27th, 2017, 7:45 am 

Hello again, Dave,
Would you agree that in order for the baby to physically move his/her eyes in a given direction the brain would have to have chosen some reference point as "home base" early on? Otherwise, how would the baby be able to reach out and grasp an object?
For example, try to look through a microscope or an astronomical telescope and "home in" on a specific point. To do this we, as adults, have to move in the OPPOSITE direction that our brain is telling us to go....
If my senses say go up, I have to consciously tell my hand to go down.
If my senses say move to the right, I have to force myself to go left.

And then there's everything in between.

At first, its very disconcerting but those who use these instruments daily eventually get used to it.

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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby Braininvat on February 27th, 2017, 10:46 am 

But the newborn has no pre-wired conception of an opposite direction. There is no prior orientation of its visual data processing that has to "flip." So I'm unsure how the instrument analogy would apply there.
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on February 27th, 2017, 11:09 am 

Braininvat » February 27th, 2017, 10:46 am wrote:But the newborn has no pre-wired conception of an opposite direction. There is no prior orientation of its visual data processing that has to "flip." So I'm unsure how the instrument analogy would apply there.


I agree....
But as soon as vision comes into play, the brain would have to choose a point of reference (maybe the tip of the nose). Then (s)he can attempt to move the eyes, hands and legs in relation to that fixed point.....

Thanks Braini,
I think this discussion is moving in "the right direction"... ha, ha

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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on February 27th, 2017, 12:11 pm 

I think I have just experienced a true "Aha!" moment!!
Almost from the moment an infant opens his/her eyes (s)he cross them and stares at her nose.... Many parents panic when they first see this, but could it be that this is her way to begin making sense out of the sensory input flooding her brain whenever she opens her eyes? The nose is the only thing that remains constant in her field of vision regardless of her bodily orientation!

And if she uses the nose as a point of reference it would appear (because of the lens) to be opposite the direction she has to move her eyes to see it. The top of her nose would appear to be toward her eyebrows when, in reality, it's exactly opposite. Through random movements her brain would quickly figure out how to do it but will this initial visual orientation help (or hinder) her in the "real" world?
I'll say it again..... Aha!

Does this make sense to anyone else?
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 1st, 2017, 12:49 pm 

Dave_Oblad » February 26th, 2017, 11:49 pm wrote:Hi Teacherman,

The process of learning to see has nothing to do with the orientation of the retina image. Suppose at birth you could surgically spin both eyes 180 degrees. The image would still be upside down on the retina and thus the orientation of the retinal image relative to the babies head is not relevant. It never "flips" at any stage during development.

Now, if you surgically rotated the eyes much later in life.. then yes.. it would be seeing upside down until it adjusted to the new visual orientation and then flipped (hopefully).

Note: I knew a guy who was heavily cross eyed from birth and asked if he saw two two separate images like I get when I cross my eyes and he said no. He only see's one image like I do.

Regards,
Dave :^)



Hi Dave,
What are your thoughts on these videos?


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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 1st, 2017, 1:02 pm 

zetreque » February 25th, 2017, 2:21 am wrote:
teacherman » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:11 pm wrote:Most doctors agree that newborn babies see everything upside down for a "period of time" - but no one really knows for how long. Since gravity determines "up" and "down", wouldn't the baby have to be able to at least hold it's head up to begin to sort things out? And wouldn't left and right logically follow after that?


I have never heard of this "seeing opposite and flipping" idea before. Do you have any studies to reference? I'm curious how they would even study this and figure it out. As of this moment I can't see how gravity would play as much of a role. When first born you touch your foot with your hand and that's "down" so I imagine you start off from the moment you open your eyes at seeing up and down despite the image being flipped.


Hi Z,
There may be studies, but I've never been able to find them. But if you GOOGLE "my child reads upside down" there are many references to the "flipping" idea. I personally believe that a significant portion of the human population never does flip the image - which only becomes a problem when learning how to read.

Thanks for responding.
Teacherman

PS If you find studies related to this subject I would greatly appreciate you posting them here.
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby zetreque on March 1st, 2017, 1:27 pm 

Observation: The way the kid pauses and leans in the second video makes me feel suspicious.
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby vivian maxine on March 1st, 2017, 1:37 pm 

I can read upside and write backward That doesn't mean I see things that way. It's just a talent some people have. I see in the normal way. I write in the normal way -- in cursive yet!

An infant's eyes do not focus together as a pair with one focal point for a month of so after birth. If you watch his eyes closely, you'll observe them working sometimes separately, sometimes in two directions - ways that scare new mothers until doctor tells them this is normal. So, how you'd prove they are seeing upside down is beyond me. They are still learning to bring both eyes together to one focal point.
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby RoccoR on March 1st, 2017, 4:17 pm 

When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?
et al,

How do we know it flips? Do we just assume that?

Experiments show we quickly adjust to seeing everything upside-down wrote:In the middle of the 20th century, an Austrian professor turned a man's eyesight exactly upside-down. After a short time, the man took this completely in his stride.

(COMMENT)

Did it ever flip? Or did the mind just adjust to a perspective we all understand as normal?

Most Respectfully,
R
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 1st, 2017, 6:18 pm 

Here's the video of that Austrian professors' Upside-Down Goggles experiment. Their names were Erismann and Kohler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKUVpBJalNQ&t=18s

It would come in handy to be able to read German. There's also no sound, but if you watch closely you will get the idea.
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 1st, 2017, 6:29 pm 

zetreque » March 1st, 2017, 1:27 pm wrote:Observation: The way the kid pauses and leans in the second video makes me feel suspicious.


Here's a 40 minute unrehearsed video of a boy I worked with several years ago. Hopefully, nothing suspicious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OKGUbM ... VKm9xecdr3
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 1st, 2017, 9:13 pm 

zetreque » March 1st, 2017, 1:27 pm wrote:Observation: The way the kid pauses and leans in the second video makes me feel suspicious.


Here's another video - this time a boy doing his Spelling Test upside-down. Just a few weeks before this was shot Desmond was just about the lowest reader and had the lowest test results in the class. Just trying to show that this is the real thing - no editing, no prompting, no practice.
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby Dave_Oblad on March 1st, 2017, 9:51 pm 

Hi all,

I've tried writing backwards on paper so it reads correctly seen in a mirror. It's not that hard. Spelling backwards on big words is a problem, but small words are easy.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 1st, 2017, 10:58 pm 

Dave_Oblad » March 1st, 2017, 9:51 pm wrote:Hi all,

I've tried writing backwards on paper so it reads correctly seen in a mirror. It's not that hard. Spelling backwards on big words is a problem, but small words are easy.

Regards,
Dave :^)


Hi Dave,
Mirror reading is much different. It's not upside down. There is a site devoted to just that: https://www.facebook.com/mirror.read
As a teacher, I have trained myself to read upside-down. It comes in handy when you have to read a book with pictures in "circle time" and also makes it easier to check work as you walk around the classroom.

But, for the kids (and adults) that I've worked with - people usually labeled "dyslexic" - upside down (and sometimes sideways) is their natural way to view print. I have many, many more videos to demonstrate this phenomena.

I appreciate your continued interest in the subject.
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 2nd, 2017, 9:53 pm 

For anyone interested in this topic there is another conversation going on on The Physics Forum.
Here's the link:https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/when-and-why-does-a-human-babys-vision-flip.906170/
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby Dave_Oblad on March 2nd, 2017, 10:40 pm 

Hi again,

Once more.. the issue involves the concept that image orientation and brain orientation are connected somehow.

They are not. The baby learns the orientation of the image it receives.. it never flips.. ever!

Does one really think the image orientation on the Retina really matters to the Brain?

It only matters if the orientation if flipped.. long after the original orientation has been learned.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 2nd, 2017, 10:48 pm 

Dave_Oblad » March 2nd, 2017, 10:40 pm wrote:Hi again,

Once more.. the issue involves the concept that image orientation and brain orientation are connected somehow.

They are not. The baby learns the orientation of the image it receives.. it never flips.. ever!

Does one really think the image orientation on the Retina really matters to the Brain?

It only matters if the orientation if flipped.. long after the original orientation has been learned.

Regards,
Dave :^)


Hi Dave,
Thanks for the response.
Can you point me to the peer reviewed research that proves this? Someone sent me this tonight: http://www.tutis.ca/Senses/L2VisualCortex/FrogEye.pdf

Teacherman

PS And if that is true, suppose the baby orients itself "wrong" in the very beginning. What happens then?
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby Dave_Oblad on March 2nd, 2017, 11:27 pm 

What?

A baby learns orientation during development, on its back or sitting up. Again.. why the concern over the fact that the image on the retina is upside down? The Eyes and the Brain are separate components. The Brain works with what it is given. It adapts during development for any orientation that is consistent during said development.

If you cover one eye until the baby is several years old, it will quite likely be blind in that eye for life, as it has never learned to use that eye while the Brain is being hardwired for Vision Processing.

This last statement is a bit sketchy, as my friend who was cross eyed and surgically corrected, did eventually learn to not see double after a few months. But stereo vision processing was already in place, so his brain had to adapt and it did.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 3rd, 2017, 12:08 am 

Dave_Oblad » March 2nd, 2017, 11:27 pm wrote:What?

A baby learns orientation during development, on its back or sitting up. Again.. why the concern over the fact that the image on the retina is upside down? The Eyes and the Brain are separate components. The Brain works with what it is given. It adapts during development for any orientation that is consistent during said development.

Okay, Dave, let's just suppose the baby orients itself so the nose is the reference point (it's only stable feature). If the image coming through is exactly opposite the reference point, then the baby is "inverted" and it goes from there. No big deal. S(he) deals with it just like the subjects in the experiments with the Inversion Goggles. Everything is fine until s(he) goes to school and has to learn how to read - top to bottom, left to right - and that wouldn't even be a problem if the brain could figure out what was wrong.

But it can't without a little help..


If you cover one eye until the baby is several years old, it will quite likely be blind in that eye for life, as it has never learned to use that eye while the Brain is being hardwired for Vision Processing.

I kinda agree with you here... I'm (currently) leaning toward the crucial time being when the child sits up and can guide it's eye, arm and leg movements. At that point my guess is that most kids re-orient to gravity. It just makes more sense. Up is up (head) and down is down feet), left is left, right is right,.
My guess is about 20% stick with inverted. The longer this phase lasts the more "hard-wired" they become. Does this make any sense to you???


This last statement is a bit sketchy, as my friend who was cross eyed and surgically corrected, did eventually learn to not see double after a few months. But stereo vision processing was already in place, so his brain had to adapt and it did.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 3rd, 2017, 12:31 am 

Dave_Oblad » March 2nd, 2017, 11:27 pm wrote:What?

A baby learns orientation during development, on its back or sitting up. Again.. why the concern over the fact that the image on the retina is upside down? The Eyes and the Brain are separate components. The Brain works with what it is given. It adapts during development for any orientation that is consistent during said development.

Regards,
Dave :^)


Maybe that explains this woman's unique way of looking at print:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC2oMsb ... VKm9xecdr3


Having trouble bringing up the thumbnail... Sorry
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby BadgerJelly on March 3rd, 2017, 1:26 am 

I have only read OP and not looked at reference as yet. What I know of this makes me think something is being misrepresented. Within a baby's brain I can see why this may seem to be what is happening. I think though that this is probably more about how the brain quickly starts to establish a physical map of the environment rather than "flipping" vision. If adult humans wear goggles that make the world appear opposite their brains (they) adjust to how the data is coming in and change it into something more compatible with our usual experience.

Why do we now see thing "upside down"? If we did wouldn't we call "upside down" the "right way up" and the "right way up" "upside down"?

If there is a physical alteration in the brain that happens to shift our visual perception during development then I would hazard a guess that it is to do with ease of processing somehow? Maybe combined with the development of kinaesthetics ("language" and motion) it is simply a more cost effective way to do things or simply the way the evolutional cookie crumbled?
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby dandelion on March 3rd, 2017, 8:34 am 

These might help,

"Our results suggest chicks hatch with a predisposition about the direction of gravity and use it to constrain the interpretation of the motion of visual objects. Though more difficult to assess in altricial species, we suspect a similar predisposition is embodied in the architecture of all animal neural systems responding to legged vertebrates, including humans."
http://indico.ictp.it/event/a06215/sess ... al/0/4.pdf
Gravity Bias in the Interpretation of Biological Motion by Inexperienced Chicks

"Newborns were shown to prefer upright compared with inverted biological motion displays."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2206618/
A Predisposition for Biological Motion in the Newborn Baby
Last edited by dandelion on March 3rd, 2017, 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: When (and Why) Does a Human Baby's Vision "Flip"?

Postby teacherman on March 3rd, 2017, 8:37 am 

vivian maxine » March 1st, 2017, 1:37 pm wrote:I can read upside and write backward That doesn't mean I see things that way. It's just a talent some people have. I see in the normal way. I write in the normal way -- in cursive yet!

An infant's eyes do not focus together as a pair with one focal point for a month of so after birth. If you watch his eyes closely, you'll observe them working sometimes separately, sometimes in two directions - ways that scare new mothers until doctor tells them this is normal. So, how you'd prove they are seeing upside down is beyond me. They are still learning to bring both eyes together to one focal point.


Thanks for your comment, Vivian
For you reading and writing may be a "talent", but for some it is a curse. Here's a 74 year old woman who could only do it that way and struggled all her life. There are two parts to this video...
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