Braininvat » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:52 pm wrote:Are you conscious of how you planned out the left turn onto a side street....or did you just do it "on automatic."
Did you plan out all the words you were going to use in your post, and then consciously form a strategy for placing your fingers in the optimal manner for typing the necessary letters?
How about your last trip to the mailbox? Planning? Strategy?
Conscious planning is just the tip of an unconscious iceberg, especially where routine acts are concerned. Consciousness is what we need when there is change and novelty and developing new skills.
vivian maxine wrote:What amount of one's acts is conscious and what amount is unconscious...
doogles wrote:BadgerJelly and OldRasputin, I appreciate the points made in your posts, but I believe that in this case, we may need to stick to the intent of vivianmaxine’s opening post in which she cites Christof Koch’s statement that “The prefrontal cortex might then be involved in unconscious planning, strategizing, forming memory and focusing attention." And then she asks the question – “Are those really "unconscious" acts? How can planning and strategizing be unconscious?
doogles » April 18th, 2017, 7:58 am wrote:BadgerJelly and OldRasputin, I appreciate the points made in your posts, but I believe that in this case, we may need to stick to the intent of vivianmaxine’s opening post in which she cites Christof Koch’s statement that “The prefrontal cortex might then be involved in unconscious planning, strategizing, forming memory and focusing attention." And then she asks the question – “Are those really "unconscious" acts? How can planning and strategizing be unconscious?
I can’t speak for Braininvat, but I can for myself. Rightly or wrongly I interpreted the word ‘unconscious’ in that context as meaning ‘subconscious’. Obviously, we can’t plan and strategise while we are unconscious as in a medical coma.
I feel that if we get into definitions and meanings of consciousness and unconsciousness, we’ll repeat something that has been attempted umpteen times in this forum with absolutely no consensus being achieved on anything.
So I ask, is it possible to limit the discussion to vivianmaxine’s query itself, while substituting the word ‘subconscious’ for ‘unconscious’ – “How can planning and strategizing be subconscious.”
How do you feel about that vivianmaxine?
BadgerJelly » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:59 am wrote:I was not pointing out some new definition of the terms. I was trying to point out that the context of the use needs to be made more clearly in many cases.
I have found Neri's thread to be the most useful in dealing with ideas of consciousness. It is not the in the realm of philosophy to define what X means. Philosophy is about looking at the limits of the meanings we have and trying to find holes or extensions.
What viv is asking can be looked at with empirical data. There have been tests that show us when we perform certain acts we create a story for the act, a story of volition, after the event. We can also predetermine an event and act upon future events.
If an event turns out the way we wanted it to, or in some other positive fashion, we quickly claim responsibility. If it goes wrong then we point the finger elsewhere.
What people then tend to do, ironically, is take these pieces of empirical data and apply them to their own thoughts to verify them. If there is an experiment that doesn't fit they usually look for, and find, a flaw with the experiment.
You should know this, and may then ask what am I going on about this for.
Basically there is a metaphysical question in regard to the delineation between conscious and unconscious processes. That question doesn't appear to be addressed in this thread. Instead it is somewhat distracted by other terms such as 'strategy' and 'planning'. It certainly doesn't make sense to say "unconscious planning" and I can only assume Koch was being a little playful with his language. We don't know what is going on in the unconscious. All we can do is view the physiology of the body and relate what we see to there to what happens.
I don't know a lot about Koch. I do know he has dabbled in the area of pan-psychism.
Personally I think it makes sense to view consciousness from multiple positions and stop getting bogged down in some bizarre idea of being able to define it in precisely. Neri look at it from the perspective of 'memory', and here I am guessing Viv is tending to look at 'volition' and consciousness in relation to unconscious "mechanisms". I plan. To me consciousness is required for planning. I am sure Koch explained in the paper what he meant by "unconscious planning". Until I see what he wrote it doesn't make sense for me to guess what he meant.
vivian maxine » April 18th, 2017, 8:41 am wrote:"All I wanted to know is can we actually plan and strategize unconsciuosly?"
neuro wrote:Even strategic planning goes on below the level of conscious attention for the most part, and it emerges to consciousness when something cannot be accounted for, or when we willingly concentrate our attention on some specific objective, plan, strategy.
Old Rasputin wrote:1. What is a “conscious act”?
A) The awareness of one’s bodily action.2. How does one do (perform) this “conscious act”?
B) The intentional causing of one’s bodily action.
C) Both A and B.
D) None of the above.
A) One cannot “do” a conscious act; one can only be ‘aware’ of bodily actions.3. How does one “form an intent”?
B) One must first “form an intent”; this intent is then the cause of the bodily action.
C) We just do it, dammit.
D) None of the above.
A) One cannot “form an intent”; one can only 'feel' (be aware of) the feeling/urge (the bodily reaction) of "intention", not 'create' (or form) it!
B) One must first have the intention to “form an intent”; then the intent is magically formed.
C) It just happens, dammit.
D) None of the above.
doogles wrote:I did not have any problems with your questionnaire per se Old Rasputin. My answers were C,C,C.
doogles wrote:As I'm answering your questionnaire, I'm mentally picturing each of the millions of entertainers on this planet (singers, jugglers, gymnasts, athletes etc etc) all performing conscious acts.
RoccoR wrote:Many eminent philosophers see a relationship between "Consciousness" and "Intentionality"
vivian maxine » April 18th, 2017, 11:37 am wrote:
All right. Enough of the sarcasm. But it does say what I meant yesterday when I said it is hard to categorize what one person can do "unconsciously" and another cannot. --- More for me to ponder there. Thank you.
BadgerJelly » April 18th, 2017, 10:31 am wrote:doogles and all I guess -
It is not that I cannot understand the idea of "unconscious planning", it is that it offers up many possible interpretations. I guess to neuroscientists they easily grasp this idea because they are familiar with the jargon being used.
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