"Asgardia" The beginning of the end for nationhood?

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"Asgardia" The beginning of the end for nationhood?

Postby BadgerJelly on July 23rd, 2017, 2:20 am 

Recently someone posted about "Asgardia", see here:

https://asgardia.space/en/

This really got me thinking about the larger implications this could have for humanity on a political scale in a sphere of endless space.

If you can follow the thread of my thinking maybe you can see the beginning of the end for nationhood? Could the future of "nations" exist in the space they really occupy? The 'real' space of nation being an ideal space rather than a physical space.

Is it at all plausible that the future may be something more like being born without a "nationality" and when you reach a certain age choosing which "nation" to join?. I would assume that in the far flung future of humanity if we are able to live comfortably off planet and in a self sustaining environment that this is the most likely course for humanity.

I think right now in the world today we can already see this "freedom" of movement being expressed on the internet. We are free roaming and able to go anywhere and do anything online. These freedoms of course are freedoms people are trying to reign in, but I am not sure they will be able to in the same way as they can with physically imposed national borders.

I am looking hopefully toward the idea of a anarchic "government" I guess. I do imagine at least some form of "government", or rather "system", that will lean toward more anarchic ideals.

What are your thoughts about the possibility of the death of nationhood as we know it? If you wish to talk about the likelihood of transition go ahead. I am more interested in the sustainable existence of such a bizarre system rather than the practical implication atm
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Re: "Asgardia" The beginning of the end for nationhood?

Postby uninfinite on July 23rd, 2017, 5:02 am 

I don't understand how an anarchic government is possible. Who will collect the space garbage? (Space junk is actually a real problem!) Are we going to turn over all government functions to an AI? It would still need to tax people if only to pay the electricity bill!
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Re: "Asgardia" The beginning of the end for nationhood?

Postby wolfhnd on July 23rd, 2017, 5:25 am 

Nation is at the very least an administrative subdivision convenience. At best it offers people the opportunity to vote with their feet. The problem is of course that the better administered subdivisions will attract an untenable stream of exploitation if participation isn't regulated. It is easy to become too abstract about the consequences of political reform.
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Re: "Asgardia" The beginning of the end for nationhood?

Postby zetreque on July 23rd, 2017, 4:14 pm 

Nationhood might someday be similar to other types of trans-boundary identities like religion or fan clubs.

The recent post mentioned was mine.
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=33022

I was hoping it would spark some interesting conversations such as this one. :)
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Re: "Asgardia" The beginning of the end for nationhood?

Postby BadgerJelly on July 25th, 2017, 1:51 am 

Yes, Zet. It could be a real possibility given peoples interactions in cyberspace. We also have the obviously abstract world of economics that has been present throughout history, but only recently has it come into public attention more starkly.

Maybe new ideas of "nationality" will arise from forums something like this? A small group of people may forma club, agree on certain rules and morals to abide by and then work in a way to integrate these ideals with society at large?

Asgardia opening up the idea of a "state" off Earth may well help us to understand the abstract nature of nationhood and rethink this idea?

In an interview with Zizek I watched recently he talked about "privilege". Before it was a privilege to occupy cyberspace and he says that in the future the privilege will be NOT occupying cyberspace. This has already been imposed upon society for the most part (not just cyberspace, but abstract space in general). To get a job we now need a bank account. It is within the rights of the employer to refuse employment if you don't have a bank account. Likely the same will be true soon for email addresses and mobile phone numbers.

It would be very interesting to see what governments would do if people started forming groups online and petitioning for "independence"/"recognition" in the same way Asgardia is?

What is more is if Asgardia can make a constitution from scratch what is stopping us from creating a new and better system of government? Obviously the very government in charge is there to prevent this from happening.

It does seem quite hard to establish some alternative to "nationhood" without physical borders nowadays. Are we going to start seeing nations claiming swthes of space beyond Earths atmosphere anytime soon?
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Re: "Asgardia" The beginning of the end for nationhood?

Postby zetreque on July 25th, 2017, 3:15 am 

And with the rise of cryptocurrencies...

read an article today how they are following a similar crypto bubble that the dot coms went through back before people understood computers.

Anyone can start a nation with their own currency.
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Re: "Asgardia" The beginning of the end for nationhood?

Postby uninfinite on July 25th, 2017, 8:05 am 

I once read a book entitled 'The Origins of Nation' - and there are apparently, various theories, but the prevailing one is that essentially, nations are a kind of protection racket. The powers that be taxed people who happened to live in a geographical location for the purposes of protection - quite often, from themselves! Latterly, theories of government attempted to claim legitimacy for governments - and governments variously tried to live up to the pretense, or not in many cases, because arguably it was easier and more secure to create and live up to a pretense of legitimacy, than it was to slaughter people until they did as they were told.

That so, what does Asgard defend us from - or alternatively, what terror might it inflict if it doesn't have our loyalty? Have you considered the possibility that a show of disloyalty such as joining the nation of Asgard may bring terrifying retribution down upon people by their governments, if it actually caught on in any serious way? Could Asgard defend its citizens - and thus win their loyalty? Or not? If so, how? How could Asgard maintain a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence if it doesn't have a geographical area over which to impose this most fundamental means of control?
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Re: "Asgardia" The beginning of the end for nationhood?

Postby zetreque on July 25th, 2017, 12:32 pm 

In the thread I created I mentioned that Asgardia is intended to protect us from space bearing hazards and military conquest of the space above us. It's basically a space race still and this is to setup rules and etiquette in space before it becomes privatization and capitalism. If you look into Asgardia

http://sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=33022
Their intended goals appear to be promoting peace, scientific integrity, equal opportunity, and equality in space.
I think the worry is that corporate powers, monopolies, money, and military power will extend into our exploration of space and pose a threat to us below them on the surface.
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Re: "Asgardia" The beginning of the end for nationhood?

Postby SciameriKen on July 25th, 2017, 3:22 pm 

uninfinite » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:05 pm wrote:That so, what does Asgard defend us from - or alternatively, what terror might it inflict if it doesn't have our loyalty? Have you considered the possibility that a show of disloyalty such as joining the nation of Asgard may bring terrifying retribution down upon people by their governments, if it actually caught on in any serious way? Could Asgard defend its citizens - and thus win their loyalty? Or not? If so, how? How could Asgard maintain a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence if it doesn't have a geographical area over which to impose this most fundamental means of control?


Could similar questions be asked of the United Nations?
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