I seek therefore I shall find.

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I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on September 20th, 2019, 9:35 pm 

I know therefore I am.
I choose to believe therefore I know. When we acknowledge the existence of a possibility, we gain knowledge and thus we understand more.
I don’t possess the practical knowledge of a scientist however I know to ask the question and not to believe all that is stated as fact. The strongest most obstinate question in any language is “What if?”
What if what we believe as the least possible is the reality that persists? Science tells us there is a finite limit to the universe based on a calculation of visible mass. Yet there is always a persistent and unanswerable question of ‘what if?’
Similar questions should be persistent when considering climate change. Climate change is real, and no matter which theory is considered it remains and threatens us all. My what if question is ‘what if climate change is due to earth shift?’ Acceptance of earth shift is becoming more prevalent in science today as studies have shown the shifting of earth’s axis is measurable and will eventually tip the world to a new axial point. This earth shift could be the cause of climate change with polar melts, rising seas, varying temperatures, storms, etc…
Consider the possibility that with the axis shifting the existing movement of winds around the planet will be altering direction leading to confrontations. Polar ice melts as it shifts to a new location and will eventually reform at the new location.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on September 21st, 2019, 3:46 am 

An adendum to this post. I have been to our local shopping centre and a curious what if came to mind. We talk so much about the environment and have done so little. What struck me on my journey was how full the shops were. There was no want for any item. What happens to those things that are not sold? Food, clothing, furniture, toys, etc...? Do they go to land fill. See it's not just what we give up on and throw away, it's what we overproduce. I can imagine fields being occupied with this overproduction. We cannot excuse it by saying there are so many people in need because those people are still in need inspite of the overproduction. In the 90's we adopted the Japanese 'Just in time' model of production. Today it seems we have abandoned it in favor of having stores look full. Or maybe world trade is so warped that there is no where for production to go so it fills our stores with all manor of goods.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby -1- on November 8th, 2019, 9:09 pm 

John D, the dump sites are full of garbage. So now we use shops, restaurants, and restrooms, as well as general stores to store our garbage. Not to mention the White House, the Kremlin, the congress, the stomach capacity of the Senate, and the cranial capacity of the POTUS.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby charon on November 9th, 2019, 12:11 am 

I seek therefore I shall find.


Depends what you're searching for. If it's Shangri La you probably won't :-)
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on November 9th, 2019, 4:59 am 

charon » 09 Nov 2019, 14:11 wrote:
I seek therefore I shall find.


Depends what you're searching for. If it's Shangri La you probably won't :-)

Why would I not if I dare only to look in my own mind. True, if I venture to find it in this world at any time past, present or future, with all the characters of humankind it would not be possible. The world is a rag short of ruin and all anyone seems to care about is how much profit there is in it. No one seems to want to take notice of the people let alone all the other lives on the planet or even the planet itself.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on November 9th, 2019, 5:16 am 

What if, we could change the world just by doing things differently. Instead of looking to blame governments, who we all know are the most stupid of humankind, we take our own action and start doing things the right way. Don't buy the rubbish in the stores, not any of it. If you don't need it don't have it, be practical. If we all put our minds to this and took action I would propose that 80% of products in stores today would disappear. They really are not necessary. Most things we buy we throw away sooner or later in favour of something that looks better, or we are convinced works better, or as it is in most cases is sold better. Almost always not because we need it.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby charon on November 9th, 2019, 8:26 am 

This sounds depressing. Not all the world is like this, just parts of it. There are plenty of places where people come first.

As for local actions in stores, etc, that's a very superficial thing, isn't it? You're right we should take action but the question is what? You and I aren't outside or separate from the world, we're part of it just like everybody else. If you want change you must lead by example. You must change, not wait for everybody else to change because they probably won't. If you become something different it'll affect others.

The question then is: what is change? It means not being like the sort of things or people you're describing, then you're not contributing to the mess.

And it is a mess, absolutely.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on November 9th, 2019, 4:55 pm 

charon » 09 Nov 2019, 22:26 wrote:This sounds depressing. Not all the world is like this, just parts of it. There are plenty of places where people come first.

Depressing yes. Not all people are like this but the world is, in all parts of it people consume too much - well beyond their needs. In life we have a singular vision, our own. It will take 7 billion individual actions to save the world.
charon » 09 Nov 2019, 22:26 wrote:As for local actions in stores, etc, that's a very superficial thing, isn't it? You're right we should take action but the question is what? You and I aren't outside or separate from the world, we're part of it just like everybody else. If you want change you must lead by example. You must change, not wait for everybody else to change because they probably won't. If you become something different it'll affect others.

Stores respond to individual desires fuelled by advertising that is forever luring people to consume more. Action at store level isn't superficial, it's necessary. Without such action what is will always be and nothing improves. A hundred years ago restraint in consumption was a practice that was taught to all the young, now we consume at will as if there is no impact to our actions. Yes it is about each individual taking action.
charon » 09 Nov 2019, 22:26 wrote:The question then is: what is change? It means not being like the sort of things or people you're describing, then you're not contributing to the mess.

And it is a mess, absolutely.

We are in agreement. That is why waiting for politicians to take action is a waste of time. Most of them have shown a lack of will to do anything while the rest debate what would be appropriate. Politicians weigh what to do against the restrictions on profitability it would cause. Our economies are based on companies being able to increase profit on an annual basis. Mostly, the ideal of saving the planet and all its inhabitants is shown to be no more than an advertising gimic aimed at generating more sales. Eco friendly is a joke, if they really wanted to be eco friendly they wouldn't manufacture the product in the first place.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby edy420 on November 15th, 2019, 8:02 pm 

The science on climate change is skewed by politicians.

Of course we have climate change.. we've always had it, always will.

Real science, is being able to measure natural climate change, and figure out the man made climate change that we have added.
Instead politicians pretend like man is fully responsible.

Id appreciate it, if politicians could give me some scientific numbers.. something like 'man made climate change has affected natural climate change by 1.34%'
Instead they just say, here's a new tax based on climate change, give me your money, thank you.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on November 16th, 2019, 2:16 am 

Edy420 in my part of the world we have floods, droughts, wildfires, fish dieing in empty rivers and our politicians say there's no such thing as climate change. At the same time everything costs more this week than it did last week.
Actually science is as much to blame as they have not accurately determined how much change is natural or man made. At the same time they are telling us that the poles are shifting and have been all along but they don't articulate what this shift is doing to our cllimate.
We can only presume that there would be cross winds, storms rough seas, changing temperatures, rising seas, polar ice melts, snow storms, ... etc..
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on December 26th, 2019, 2:03 am 

Things have happened in the past couple of weeks that have dismayed and yet filled me with hope for all our futures. UK elections have confirmed a deep concern about this voting age generation's priorities. Obviously, people are concerned about jobs and their future in jobs and not so much about what hurts everyone and everything. The message we get, or at least the one I have received is that the status quo is more important. Everything that is done is being dictated by a corrupt accounting system that doesn't include people, the environment or and other creature. As I mentioned at the beginning I do see signs of hope. I have hope in the upcoming generations, hopefully they will be less influenced by what the current generations see as the status quo. Hopefully, they will be able to create a new future for everyone and everything.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby davidm on December 26th, 2019, 1:23 pm 

JohnD » September 20th, 2019, 7:35 pm wrote: My what if question is ‘what if climate change is due to earth shift?’ Acceptance of earth shift is becoming more prevalent in science today as studies have shown the shifting of earth’s axis is measurable and will eventually tip the world to a new axial point. This earth shift could be the cause of climate change with polar melts, rising seas, varying temperatures, storms, etc…


This is not correct. I think you may be mixing up geographical pole shift with magnetic pole shift. The magnetic poles are shifting. However, they have done so many times in the past. Will this create problems? Some, possibly. But fears of apocalypse are misplaced.

What about geographical polar shifting? Is the axis of the earth changing? As a matter of fact, it is — very, very slightly, and certainly in no way that would account for the climate change we are demonstrably experiencing.

But why is earth’s axis (very slightly) shifting? O, irony! It turns out that it is doing so because of man-made climate change!

At this point, man-made climate-change denialism is on par with anti-vaxers, flat earthers, Obama birthers, 9/11 truthers, and moon-landing hoaxers. There is no “what if” about what is driving climate change: we are.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on December 26th, 2019, 5:29 pm 

Hi DavidM. To deny what is real would be futile for anyone. As I have said to start I believe in climate change. It is real. What we have is apocalyptic. My question, I believe is correct. As you state, there is some effect to our climate due to the shift.
You say I have geographical and magnetic confused however you go on to say both are shifting, so where is my confusion?
My question has been and still is how much of what is happening is attributable to this shift?
Your response is some, but how much is some? 10%? 20%? Maybe, you don't have the answer and just want to deflect the question.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on December 26th, 2019, 5:52 pm 

JohnD » November 16th, 2019, 1:16 am wrote:..
Actually science is as much to blame as they have not accurately determined how much change is natural or man made.

Science is not a single entity with a single voice. Many scientists have been warning us, for over a century, that a massive shift to industrialization would have bad, terrible, catastrophic (depending on which scientist you read) consequences, and that we should modify the way we use fossil fuels, the waste of resources. the way we keep multiplying and devastating ecosystems.
The reason governments have failed to respond, and that industries have, on the contrary, bought large piles of disinformation on the subject and pressured governments into inaction - is not that they didn't know the exact proportions of natural to man-made change. If that had been the reason, they would have sponsored more studies, rather than suppressing the ones already done; they would have invested in mitigating the predicted changes, instead of economic growth.

It's that they did know and didn't want us to care.

At the same time they are telling us that the poles are shifting and have been all along but they don't articulate what this shift is doing to our cllimate.

I'm sure the ones who know this science are writing it up in journals, so you can find out. They don't call you up personally to relate their latest findings, and the popular media don't present a lot of the boring stuff - they like volcanoes and dinosaur bones. It doesn't matter: you can't affect the poles anyway.
You can presume anything you like - if you try hard enough.
But if you look at a river covered in oil or at a sky dark grey with coal smoke, a little voice in your head has to be saying: "this is not good." Every time you buy a plastic bottle of water that's been shipped across an ocean, or hear an air force jet scream over your head, you know: this is not good.
Do you then go into the booth and vote for the candidate who's dedicated to improving your environment, or the one who promised to cut your taxes?

I have hope in the upcoming generations, hopefully they will be less influenced by what the current generations see as the status quo. Hopefully, they will be able to create a new future for everyone and everything.

They'll cope with whatever we leave them, however they can.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on December 26th, 2019, 6:40 pm 

I'm searching for a way of saying things so they don't offend anyone personally. True, there have been thousands, possibly millions of scientists over the last millennia. Not all though have thought of the good of the planet or indeed of mankind. Ethical battles still rage over all perceived knowledge. Advances that have occurred in the many fields wouldn't have happened without the direct involvement of scientists. Before the involvement of science there was no use for crude oil, in fact there was no machinery. These people weren't politicians, they informed politicians. Most politicians are unintelligent taskers looking for whichever way they can be elected and re-elected. Scientists are supposed to be above all that. There is very little, if any, altruism in science. With most scientists looking at being businessmen first and foremost it is difficult to distinguish who is most to blame.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on December 26th, 2019, 7:14 pm 

JohnD » December 26th, 2019, 5:40 pm wrote: These people [scientists] weren't politicians, they informed politicians.

Sometimes. But for most of history, 'politicians' were not answerable to the polity. They took what information suited them and acted on it if it suited them - the consultant had precious little say in how his information or advice would be used.
Most politicians are unintelligent taskers looking for whichever way they can be elected and re-elected.
Why?
Who put such persons into positions of power? Who chose them? Who won't vote for the candidate that refuses to flatter them or appears smarter than they are?
Scientists are supposed to be above all that.

Why?
This is the crux of your complaint, isn't it?
That scientists are fallible and self-interested as other humans; that they don't fight your battles and save you from your own selfish desires.
All scientists can do is their job - which may also be their passion, their quest, their obsession - or just the nicest work they could get with the brains they have. They figure things out, discuss among themselves, publish their findings and go on to the next thing.
Nowhere in a physicist's or geologist's or meteorologist's job description is "crusading". Some do anyway.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on December 26th, 2019, 8:57 pm 

The "crux" of my argument is that something needs to be done now, no one person on the entire planet can say they are blameless. Self-interest is a wrong we are all guilty of and no one should be given a free pass.
Yes, I am selfish as any other human on this planet I'm looking to survive within a structure designed to work best within certain parameters. Weather these parameters are of my own design or have been dictated it is extremely difficult to do otherwise.
The extraordinary amount of defeatism in regards to so many pressing issues is evidence that there is no clear path even though we all understand the actions needed to be taken.
My message to science is this, if you have all the data put it out there for everyone to find.
If you don't have all the data still put it out there and update it as often as you can.
Don't be concerned about what the media picks up or ignores.
Make sure the message is as comprehensive and as widely available as is possible using current technology.
Make sure it is written in the plainest language that doesn't require a degree to understand.
Tell people as boldly as you can what they can and cannot do to make things better
The worst anyone can do is to wait for politicians to do something
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on December 26th, 2019, 9:32 pm 

JohnD » December 26th, 2019, 7:57 pm wrote:Self-interest is a wrong we are all guilty of and no one should be given a free pass.

It's not a "wrong". It's a survival trait that works very well for us when it's not misinformed and misdirected. But it's not the scientists' duty to educate us against our will.

The extraordinary amount of defeatism in regards to so many pressing issues is evidence that there is no clear path even though we all understand the actions needed to be taken.

That's because the problem is framed for public debate by the interests that want no action taken.

My message to science is this, if you have all the data put it out there for everyone to find.

They have. https://qz.com/817354/scientists-have-been-forecasting-that-burning-fossil-fuels-will-cause-climate-change-as-early-as-1882/
If you don't have all the data still put it out there and update it as often as you can.

They do. https://bravenewclimate.com/about/
Don't be concerned about what the media picks up or ignores.

I'm concerned about that because a lot of people don't know how to find reliable information on their own, and they are offered an enormous amount of misinformation. Public broadcast media - not scientists - are in the business of educating the public.
The worst anyone can do is to wait for politicians to do something

Fine: do your own little thing, whatever you think that should be. But you can't turn off the really big things. Only governments and big business have that power. They need serious pushing from the citizenry.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby davidm on December 26th, 2019, 10:03 pm 

As you state, there is some effect to our climate due to the shift.


No, I did not say that. I said the opposite.

You hypothesized that the shifting of the earth’s axis may be responsible for climate change. The article that I linked you to shows, with evidence, exactly the reverse: that the (minuscule!) shift in the earth’s axis is because of man-made climate change. Axis shift is not driving climate change — climate change is driving axis shift!

You say I have geographical and magnetic confused however you go on to say both are shifting, so where is my confusion?


Your confusion lies in the fact that you claimed that geographical shift was significant, and you were talking only about axis shift (not magnetic shift), whereas the article I linked you to shows that axis shift is NOT significant — it is barely measurable (unlike magnetic shift). Moreover, again, axis shift is NOT a cause of climate change, as you suggested, but an EFFECT of (man-made) climate change.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Reg_Prescott on December 27th, 2019, 8:08 am 

Serpent » December 27th, 2019, 8:14 am wrote:
Most politicians are unintelligent taskers looking for whichever way they can be elected and re-elected.



Why say "taskers" when you can say f....

Er, nothing.

Merry Xmas.

And our prime minister is dumber than your president. Na na nan na nah!!!
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on December 27th, 2019, 12:03 pm 

Reg_Prescott » December 27th, 2019, 7:08 am wrote:[Most politicians are unintelligent taskers looking for whichever way they can be elected and re-elected.]

For the record, that quote was not mine: This reply was:
Why?
Who put such persons into positions of power? Who chose them? Who won't vote for the candidate that refuses to flatter them or appears smarter than they are?

I have no president; the neighbours do, Lillith help them! Our PM is smart enough for everyday life, but can't cope with how the most pressing problem of our time is framed - was framed, decades before he came on the scene: environment vs economy. None of the sane heads of state can deal with that, though some nations have had sane enough administrations to be well ahead of us in climate change mitigation. (And of course, they're not resource-based economies; they import raw materials, which makes it easier to reconcile their economic needs with their environmental needs, and they're not living in the shadow of the US - all they have to cope with crazy England.)
The insane ones simply pretend it doesn't exist and aim at some other, irrelevant agenda, like military supremacy, taming Hong Kong, putting their failed god back on top or making their country great against all odds.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on December 27th, 2019, 8:32 pm 

Just a quick pointer for Davidm. A geographical polar shift last happened approx. 10,000 years ago and resulted in rising seas and continents shifting. Last articles I read on the matter were several months ago and there was a theory that the next shift could happen within the next 1000 years. A later article stated that evidence showed the shift was happening faster than predicted and could be upon us within the next 100 years. True, pollution in all its forms may be affecting the speed of the change but not causing the change.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby davidm on December 27th, 2019, 9:07 pm 

“True polar wander,” as it is called, last occurred within the past 12 million years, and NOT 10,000 years ago. (at least not to any significant degree, if it did happen at all. Do you have a cite for this claim?) Moreover, it is not happening right now, except as a matter of a few centimeters, which completely refutes your idea that true polar wander is CAUSING climate change. This is simply false. It is true, however, that man-made climate change is causing a (very slight!) shift in the geographic poles, as is explained in the article that I linked. Did you read it, and the two other articles that I linked?
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby davidm on December 27th, 2019, 9:23 pm 

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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby TheVat on December 28th, 2019, 12:17 pm 

This is off topic for the PCF section. Any scientific assertions, here or in SCF, must be supported by citations from peer-reviewed sources (see Dave's posts) or sources derived from them. Further off topic material will be removed, in the interests of thread coherence.

Regarding John's comment....

My message to science is this, if you have all the data put it out there for everyone to find.


Science did, and does. Search engines are your friend.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 9th, 2020, 3:28 pm 

After a long time searching I find I am one of those taken in by fake news, I apologise. The article did appear but must have been taken down.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on January 9th, 2020, 5:00 pm 

JohnD » January 9th, 2020, 2:28 pm wrote:After a long time searching I find I am one of those taken in by fake news, I apologise. The article did appear but must have been taken down.

This is why "preponderance of evidence" is so important. You will always find a bogus article or 'scientific' study to support any crackpot notion, propaganda or obfuscation of issues. Check their sources, check the credentials of their authors (and sponsors), then compare their conclusions to respectable journals. Note plural.
It really is hard for a layman to make sense of contemporary science.
That's why I deem popular media guilty of dereliction of duty. They have research departments to sort through all the information and sift out the garbage. Instead, they tend to run, unchecked, unverified, with the most 'newsworthy' item, whether it has real scientific value or not.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 17th, 2020, 5:41 pm 

Very true Serpent and again I apologise I should be more vigilant. In as far as what I'm trying to get to with this post:
This morning I reviewed my diabetes spreadsheet (I keep all my figures on one so I can better track what's happening and why.) and I couldn't help noticing the daily variances accoding to what I eat, etc...
This led me to thinking about everything else that's been happening in the world and how it all relates. I see the problems with the world as being akin to taking a diabetic to an all you can eat buffet at a fast food outlet, you know what the outcome will be before you get there.
In the meantime we have world leaders, both in business and politics, calling a food fight. Of course both inside and outside the food outlet there is a pile of rubbish steadily building and the staff are far too overwhelmed to do anything about it.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on January 17th, 2020, 6:05 pm 

You pretty much nailed the state of affairs, JohnD.
It doesn't look as if the "leaders" will have a sudden clap of sanity anytime soon.
The "leader of the free world" is holding rallies, ranting against water restriction - while half the world is drowning and the other half is parched. The proportion of causative factors is moot at this point. But they're still fighting against any proposed mitigation measures.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 17th, 2020, 7:45 pm 

We the people of the world need to find someway of rallying and doing something ourselves. There has to be world unity. We need to champion our own cause.
Our children have the right idea, why can't we do the same? In this country we have just suffered some of the worst bush fires in our history - including 40,000 years of indigenous rule - and yet our pollies are still looking at who to blame other than climate change and our own neglect.
We have politicians who are denying us the opportunity of having electric vehicles because oil revenue is too attractive. Car companies are no better refusing to import direct into this country as they're not getting subsidies from the government - or at least this is the way it seems. I shall stand corrected if I'm wrong however it doesn't look like we'll be getting any soon.
The list goes on as companies are given free reign and people are told they need to suffer. The whole world it seems is living under a false economy being told they have to keep producing in order for the economy to flourish. It doesn't seem to matter what is being produced as long as people are working.
Maybe I'm suffering from some form of delusional lunacy but I get to feel there's something wrong with it all. Life isn't supposed to be like this, not for any of us!
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