Gun Control. The third Way

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Gun Control. The third Way

Postby Event Horizon on September 20th, 2019, 2:36 pm 

This problem in the states has proven highly vexatious for years.
After years of pondering and argument, I think I have found another way.

Proposal:

A 6am to 6pm public carry curfew.
Carriers to be disarmed, forcibly if necessary. The weapon would be forfeit by way of penalty.
This could already be done using local ordinances, maybe.
Allowing people to continue to hold arms at home, and allowing people to carry at night should still satisfy the 2nd amendment.

This won't stop gun crime, but should help considerably to reduce school shootings and other deaths.

Could this me made to fly?
Not a ban, a compromise.
Thoughts?
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Re: Gun Control. The third Way

Postby TheVat on September 20th, 2019, 4:19 pm 

The States are a patchwork of open carry and concealed carry laws. None can really enforce against concealed carry, given the logistics that would involve. Most gun homicides happen in the home, where carry permits would be irrelevant. Most mass shootings are done by people who didn't consult their state's statutes before sneaking a gun, often a military style assault rifle, to a public location.

At this point, I'd say screw the 2nd Amendment, which was written for an 18th century pastoral society with countryside militias in mind, and has been poorly understood and interpreted since then. We aren't going to get rid of violent psychotic breaks or people who are clever at getting around laws. If we don't want people being gunned down in public, then we should ratify a new amendment to replace the 2nd, and which reserves gun ownership for soldiers and hunting lodges, as many countries do. We don't need guns to fend off our government because our government has stuff that makes AR-15s look like peashooters. Those weapons wouldn't save us from a rogue government (better educated voters might, however) that instituted martial law.
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Re: Gun Control. The third Way

Postby Dave_C on September 20th, 2019, 9:14 pm 

Gun control is notoriously difficult to affect in the US, I think because guns are so ingrained in the culture, legal system and economy. There are those who believe that guns are good in some way regardless of what logic is brought to bear on the topic. In fact, they will look to their peers and those who they believe are leaders in the gun community for how they should think and the masses will adopt whatever it is they are told to believe in.

People for example, often talk about suicide by gun as if these people don't matter. They will kill themselves regardless of what mechanism is available. This sets up suicide victims as people with no value. A wonderful Scientific American article was written around suicide by gun.

Won't people who are stopped from killing themselves today just find another way to complete the act later? Some number will, unfortunately. Yet most who survive do not keep trying until they succeed. Instead, studies show, the majority of survivors die a natural death many years after failing to kill themselves. The period of greatest vulnerability seems to be in the first year after an attempt, a time when treatment for those who try to end their life is critically important, experts say.

Perhaps the best evidence for the strength of this survival instinct stems from pioneering research carried out by Richard Seiden in the 1970s. Then a clinical psychologist at the University of California, Berkeley, Seiden found that more than 90 percent of the 515 people who were prevented from jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge between the year it opened in 1937 and 1971 eventually lived long enough to die of nonviolent causes. Indeed, Seiden's work spurred such a surge of scientific inquiry by other investigators who reached the same conclusion that state authorities finally agreed to install antisuicide netting underneath the famous span.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -suicides/

Preventing suicide by gun is something that can be accomplished as outlined in this article. Ways of reducing homicides and deaths of all sorts due to guns can also be accomplished. What's required is research into effective means and the application of laws. But perhaps what's required most of all is a change in the culture and people's attitudes towards gun deaths. Beliefs are extremely difficult if not impossible things to change. There's a tremendous amount of inertia to overcome in changing beliefs whether they are beliefs about guns, beliefs about religion or beliefs about anything. There will always be a tremendous amount of resistance to changing those beliefs so laws and regulations as you mention, though possibly effective, are not really the answer. The answer has to take into consideration how to change the culture.
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Re: Gun Control. The third Way

Postby Event Horizon on September 21st, 2019, 9:06 am 

Thanks for such insightful comments.
A couple of arms manufactures have in the last week said they will no longer sell AR15 type weapons in America. I think colt is one.
If this shifts the existing paradigm, it may help.

No American(s) can overthrow a despotic leader on their own, whatever gun they have. There is therefore no justification to carry arms in public.
The 2nd amendment has lost its legitimacy, and I agree with brainy that the 2nd is not fit for purpose anymore.
No civilians can overthrow a government in the USA by force of arms, its just fantasy.
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Re: Gun Control. The third Way

Postby edy420 on September 8th, 2020, 6:09 pm 

Given that AOC wants to defund the police altogether, and some cities are taking her seriously, its not an armed government you need to worry about. An even more dangerous police force, is a non-existent one.

If rioters were to attack my business, my livelyhood, then you can bet Id want to be standing in the way fully armed. I commend Kyle Rittenhouse, for standing upto the terrorists who are attempting to burn his country to the ground. The footstomp wouldnt have killed him, nor the skateboard to the head, but the guy with the handgun would have killed him. If he didn't have his AR, then he'd be dead.

Now Trump is looking at removing federal funding, because they aren't being used to fund the police. Hes launched a review to figure out the best course of action. Crime rates and murder rates are already doubling. If he does remove funding, and more police move, as well as defunded further, then those cities residents will want their 2cnd amendment protection 24/7.
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Re: Gun Control. The third Way

Postby TheVat on September 8th, 2020, 6:59 pm 

Post will be removed due to grossly inaccurate and some outright false statements. Also is off the OP topic. These violate our terms of service.

I will leave it up a couple hours for self-correction if that is something poster would consider doing. Just to help the process, please note that "defunding" does not mean ending police forces, but rather shifting some operations (nonviolent situations involving the mentally ill for example) to professionals with relevant training like social workers and mental health specialists. The more paramilitary forms of policing would be funded less, and special weapons and tactics teams deployed when really needed.

Also, violent crime and homicide has not doubled in the US. This is patently false. Easy enough to google actual DOJ stats on this.

And the Rittenhouse case is not accurately reported here, and awaits court proceedings. It's also another thread topic.

Make me waste my time again dealing with regurgitated agitprop and you will be done here.
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Re: Gun Control. The third Way

Postby edy420 on September 8th, 2020, 7:51 pm 

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez said Tuesday the proposed $1.5 billion NYPD budget slash didn’t go far enough.

Defunding police means defunding police. It does not mean budget tricks or funny math. It does not mean moving school police officers from the NYPD budget to the Department of Education’s budget so the exact same police remain in schools,”


https://nypost.com/2020/06/30/aoc-says- ... ar-enough/

My point on topic, is that without enough police, you will need to protect yourself. 24/7. The OPs proposition would not work.

New York City is not alone. Shootings have skyrocketed in major cities across the country, and that surge has led to intense political fights over whether efforts to rein in the police, including the Defund the Police movement touched off by the killing of George Floyd, are playing a role.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/nyre ... virus.html

I don't see anything wrong with my post. But your the boss, feel free to trample my free speech. If you have any points that dispute mine, that would be philosophical discussion. I guess thats unacceptable. Just calling me a liar, is sufficient, it seems.
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Re: Gun Control. The third Way

Postby TheVat on September 8th, 2020, 8:59 pm 

AOC, in your link, nowhere says get rid of police entirely, and in fact supports what i already pointed out. It's also somewhat deceptive to not consider what the other 434 members of our House chamber have said on the matter. Show me any of them who call for complete removal of armed officers.

Nor did you present anything, from the NYT, to support violent crime doubling. Of course, it's up in some hoods of some cities. Areas where, what, 5% of our population resides? That often happens when people are out of work due to a crisis and then gang warfare escalates. Gang members attack rival gang members which is plainly making a case for less access to guns -- especially illegal purchases. THAT would have been an actual topic for the thread.

As for whinging about free speech, I don't do pissing contests. We have forum requirements for backing claims with evidence (and not stuff from the Murdoch -owned propaganda rag, The NY Post) and your signing up here means you agree to honor those requirements. You are not absolutely free to make false attributions.

Nobody ever sees anything wrong with their posts. That's the point of having moderators.
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Re: Gun Control. The third Way

Postby BadgerJelly on September 8th, 2020, 11:14 pm 

I’ve looked into this problem before. The issue doesn’t appear to be gun laws, it appears to be something about US culture and violent crime.

When compared to other nations i the US things like knife crime and general murder are disproportionately higher than many other nations. Compared to Italy, France, Spain etc., the US is 3-4 times higher. When it comes to violent crimes in general it is also much higher.

The debate over gun laws may lead to lessening the number of deaths by a few percent, but over all the issue seems to me to probably lie MUCH deeper in the social make up of the US and the cause of such violence is too often looked for too close to the act rather than the build up which led to the act.

Note: I don’t see much changing anytime soon (meaning the problem doesn’t even appear to have been addressed properly yet so I cannot say there is much chance of progress before that point is reached - due to over politicisation of topics like this to gain public favour, well meaning or otherwise).

To amend ... a small difference would at least save some lives, so it doesn’t hurt to treat the effects too!
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Re: Gun Control. The third Way

Postby charon on September 9th, 2020, 4:39 am 

TheVat » September 20th, 2019, 9:19 pm wrote:The States are a patchwork of open carry and concealed carry laws. None can really enforce against concealed carry, given the logistics that would involve. Most gun homicides happen in the home, where carry permits would be irrelevant. Most mass shootings are done by people who didn't consult their state's statutes before sneaking a gun, often a military style assault rifle, to a public location.

At this point, I'd say screw the 2nd Amendment, which was written for an 18th century pastoral society with countryside militias in mind, and has been poorly understood and interpreted since then. We aren't going to get rid of violent psychotic breaks or people who are clever at getting around laws. If we don't want people being gunned down in public, then we should ratify a new amendment to replace the 2nd, and which reserves gun ownership for soldiers and hunting lodges, as many countries do. We don't need guns to fend off our government because our government has stuff that makes AR-15s look like peashooters. Those weapons wouldn't save us from a rogue government (better educated voters might, however) that instituted martial law.


Absolutely right, Vat. Complete sense at last.
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Re: Gun Control. The third Way

Postby Serpent on September 9th, 2020, 10:45 am 

Here is a manageable - because selective, rather than comprehensive - international comparison.
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-gun-policy-global-comparisons
All the clap-trap about the second amendment is just that - a convenient, if threadbare cover for "I wanna play so'jers!" and even more for "I wanna make a shitload of money on the childishness of my fellow citizens. So what if they're sick, as long as my profit margin is healthy?"
An expensive and menacing lobby trumps the opinion of 75% of the people, every time.
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