Bias, or just fact?

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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby Forest_Dump on November 10th, 2020, 11:21 pm 

No, in fact, this will be covered as further evidence of a huge cover-up and conspiracy where Mr. Hopkins was pressured to recant. And nobody can prove that didn't happen.
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby Serpent on November 11th, 2020, 1:08 am 

Where's Franz Kafka skived off to, just when we need a good chronicler?
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby charon on November 11th, 2020, 5:46 am 

...

A fact is a fact is a fact. Bias only arises in the interpretation of facts.

A very good example is the Democrats and Republicans or, in the UK, Tory and Labour. One lot are conditioned to a certain way of thinking and the other lot have their way of thinking, equally conditioned. But if they all got together and dealt with issues factually, rationally, logically and with intelligent common sense, they'd probably come to the same wise conclusions and act accordingly.

It's not rocket science. As it is, they spend most of their time pecking at each other and arguing aggressively about nothing, which is so utterly childish.

They all need to grow up, really. I don't know why people like that are in charge of anything. They're too stupid, basically.
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby Serpent on November 11th, 2020, 9:36 am 

In a nutshell
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby mtbturtle on November 11th, 2020, 11:08 pm 

charon » Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:46 am wrote:...

A fact is a fact is a fact. Bias only arises in the interpretation of facts..
Facts involve interpretation as does Science (the best not only way we come to know facts).
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby charon on November 12th, 2020, 12:26 am 

According to what do you interpret a fact?
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby mtbturtle on November 12th, 2020, 9:48 am 

charon » Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:26 pm wrote:According to what do you interpret a fact?

According to whatever you want I suppose. Your experience culture education, interests....? Facts are the result of an epistemological method they aren't out there floating around waiting for you to grab them and interpret.
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby Forest_Dump on November 12th, 2020, 9:51 am 

charon » Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:26 pm wrote:According to what do you interpret a fact?


And there is the real core of the question. And of course there has been ton already written on that topic including much of post modernism even before Trump - all knowledge is political. The selection of facts is political and even the generation of facts is political.

I would stick to a point in the OP. Trump had the worst favorables going into the election but ended up with a higher raw vote count of over 70 million voters than anyone in US history aside from Biden. So either all those stats were wrong or the favorables were irrelevant. And I don't think we have a reliable answer to that yet although there are plenty offering interpretations according to their preferred biases.
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby Serpent on November 12th, 2020, 11:43 am 

Fact: Pg 1

ALLEGATIONS OF WIDE-SPREAD VOTER FRAUD









fact: pg 52

no evidence
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby charon on November 12th, 2020, 12:25 pm 

Forest_Dump » November 12th, 2020, 2:51 pm wrote:
charon » Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:26 pm wrote:According to what do you interpret a fact?


And there is the real core of the question. And of course there has been ton already written on that topic including much of post modernism even before Trump - all knowledge is political. The selection of facts is political and even the generation of facts is political.


Oh, god, why can't we be simple about these things?

Look, a fact is presented to us. It is what it is. When we begin to interpret, translate, judge, analyse or categorise it, what happens? We can only do so with what limited knowledge we have, right?

That's all, so the fact is one thing and the response of knowledge is another. They're two entirely different things. When we begin to interpret or translate, the fact is forgotten. We've stopped looking at it.

The fact never creates dissension, it's just there. What causes dissension is the various interpretations that can't agree with each other. Then the whole thing becomes impossible, squabbling about nothing.

Whereas if we stuck to the fact only we can all see exactly what it is and not go beyond that. Then we can see how it has come into being, its causes, its effects, its nature and make-up, and so on. Thus understanding of the fact is possible, but there's no understanding through constant interpretations and misinterpretations.

This is true, isn't it?

I don't think we have a reliable answer to that yet although there are plenty offering interpretations according to their preferred biases.


Exactly, so none of those interpretations mean a thing.
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby TheVat on November 12th, 2020, 1:43 pm 

Charon, we take a fact to be a true statement about the world. Those facts are generally not a priori statements. They are made from the interpretation of data, drawn from the external world. And data is what we choose to look at. So, no, facts aren't pure things that just float out there waiting to be plucked.

That's why methods are developed that embody sound logic and careful reasoning about causes and effects, and how observations can be influenced. We have data, we work towards facts.
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby charon on November 12th, 2020, 2:31 pm 

Vat -

Thanks. So, if a 'fact' is NOT a priori, i.e. deducted from reasoning rather than experience, then it must be actual and factual. Like your post. It's there, tangibly, on the screen.

But you say some facts are interpreted from collected data. That is, if all available data, gathered in good faith, says that 97% of people in a certain area prefer potatoes to turnips then we accept that as a fact. It might not be, but we accept it.

But I was talking about something different, of course. Certainly when it comes to politics and one sees the incessant dissection on the media of what certain people say and do, nearly all of it is interpretation and not fact. It arises from fact, but is not fact.

But are you saying that the thread is only about data? Sorry, it didn't appear to be.
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby Forest_Dump on November 12th, 2020, 6:06 pm 

Data tend to be observations gathered to address specific questions with the hope an argument can be made that the observations will really be relevant. But that isn't always the case. For example there is always the question of sampling. There can be questions of data integrity. And there can be questions of a causal link to some conclusion. In the Trump case, his favorables were very low. Were enough of the "right" people sampled? Were these people being fully honest? Or were his poor favorables relevant when it came time to decide who to vote for? In the end all we really know is that barring any evidence of voter fraud more people voted for Trump in this election than ever voted for anyone else except Biden this time. Personally I can see Trump repeating that support in four years time but I am far less sure Biden or Harris will be able to (without covid-19).
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby mtbturtle on November 12th, 2020, 6:09 pm 

Forest_Dump » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:51 am wrote:
charon » Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:26 pm wrote:According to what do you interpret a fact?


And there is the real core of the question. And of course there has been ton already written on that topic including much of post modernism even before Trump - all knowledge is political. The selection of facts is political and even the generation of facts is political.

I would stick to a point in the OP. Trump had the worst favorables going into the election but ended up with a higher raw vote count of over 70 million voters than anyone in US history aside from Biden. So either all those stats were wrong or the favorables were irrelevant. And I don't think we have a reliable answer to that yet although there are plenty offering interpretations according to their preferred biases.


It is likely all the stats were wrong but it's unlikely they all were that wrong thus for many Trumps unfavorables are irrelevant. He's a POS but he's their POS
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby doogles on November 13th, 2020, 5:10 pm 

Bear in mind that 'facts' can only be stated using 'abstract representations of phenomena' (words), so we need to be careful about the words we use to state 'facts'.

For example, which one of these sentences describes a common 'fact'?

1. The sun rises in the east every cloudless morning.
2. The sun seems to rise in the east every cloudless morning.
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby charon on November 13th, 2020, 8:01 pm 

What's a 'fact' as opposed to a fact?
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby doogles on November 14th, 2020, 5:01 pm 

Good question Charon! What would you suggest?

I see it that Number 1 was a fact forever, until people like Copernicus and Galileo produced another concept. Now it is a 'fact'.
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby Serpent on November 14th, 2020, 5:26 pm 

I see the sun rise in the east on a cloudless morning. I have seen this same event on every cloudless morning of my life so far.
Whereas, there had previously been insufficient light to see very much, as the sun ascends, light increases. When it descends again in the west, light decreases.
On a cloudy day, I perceive gradual increase of the light-level in the morning and decrease in the evening.
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby charon on November 14th, 2020, 8:31 pm 

doogles » November 14th, 2020, 10:01 pm wrote:Good question Charon! What would you suggest?

I see it that Number 1 was a fact forever, until people like Copernicus and Galileo produced another concept. Now it is a 'fact'.


You misunderstand me. I meant a 'fact' is a supposed-to-be fact, as denoted by the inverted commas, whereas a fact is an actuality.

Only your first phrase is a fact because the sun always rises in the east whether it's cloudless or not.
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby Forest_Dump on November 14th, 2020, 10:22 pm 

I suppose all facts need to be considered to be relative. While I fully understand your point about the sun rising in the east, I also know this is not so if you are at one of the poles and, secondly, if we were up in space we would probably note that the sun doesn't rise at all but the earth spins. I am trying to not be a pedantic POS but I think your repost actually illustrates the tentative nature of "facts" quite well.
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby mtbturtle on November 15th, 2020, 8:07 pm 

charon » Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:31 pm wrote:
doogles » November 14th, 2020, 10:01 pm wrote:Good question Charon! What would you suggest?

I see it that Number 1 was a fact forever, until people like Copernicus and Galileo produced another concept. Now it is a 'fact'.


You misunderstand me. I meant a 'fact' is a supposed-to-be fact, as denoted by the inverted commas, whereas a fact is an actuality.

Only your first phrase is a fact because the sun always rises in the east whether it's cloudless or not.


Are facts metaphysical, epistemological, both, neither?
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby charon on November 16th, 2020, 3:03 am 

A fact is something real, not supposed, assumed or invented. Can we get on with it?
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby mtbturtle on November 19th, 2020, 9:22 pm 

charon » Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:03 am wrote:A fact is something real, not supposed, assumed or invented. Can we get on with it?


So facts for you are metaphysical, real? For me facts as I said previously are epistemological.
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby charon on November 20th, 2020, 1:24 am 

So facts for you are metaphysical, real?


You must quote me rightly. I said real. I didn't say metaphysical, that was your word.

Then you say:

For me facts as I said previously are epistemological


Do you know what epistemological means? Here it is:

the study or a theory of the nature and grounds of knowledge especially with reference to its limits and validity

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/epistemology


Are facts actual or theoretical? If they're theoretical are they real?

What is a fact? A fact is something actual, real. The sun, the moon, the earth are facts. Things that are happening, like those fires in California, are facts. They exist, they're real, they're not invented by someone.

So is a fact anything to do with theory? All theories are invented, aren't they?

There's your answer.
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby edy420 on November 20th, 2020, 6:34 am 

I watch multiple sources of media, for a more complete package of information. (one of my favorite being Australian coverage of American events)

It's interesting how two opposing news networks can show, literally the same footage, and somehow paint a polar opposite point of view. News networks, are more like reality TV, full of actors who want to do all the thinking for you.(Don Lemon, that South African comic, Tucker etc.) It's kind of insulting to the viewers intelligence, IMHO.

Unbias media is raw footage, alone. In the old days, they used to just read off the events, in the most unbiased format. But I guess that's too boring for ratings.

I think, to describe an action, step by step as it was seen, is unbias facts. As soon as you start adding reasons, or background information, it becomes bias.
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby charon on November 20th, 2020, 9:14 am 

You can add background information providing it's factual and true.

Reasons are the same. They can be factual too. If I burn my hand and say it was because I put it in a flame, both the burn and the reason are factual if they are true. You can prove the burn because it's on my hand but you may not be able to prove the reason. It may be in the past and gone.

The problem with the media and politicians, etc, is that they give reasons which may not be true. Then someone else comes along with a different reason and claims their one is true, not the other one.

It's a crazy world where nobody really knows what is true and what isn't. That's when belief starts, you have to choose which reason you want to believe. Then there's fighting and disagreement between people who believe different things.

This is why we should stick to facts and not go beyond them.
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby mtbturtle on November 20th, 2020, 10:51 am 

charon » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:24 am wrote:
So facts for you are metaphysical, real?


You must quote me rightly. I said real. I didn't say metaphysical, that was your word.

Then you say:

For me facts as I said previously are epistemological


Do you know what epistemological means? Here it is:

the study or a theory of the nature and grounds of knowledge especially with reference to its limits and validity

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/epistemology
yes dear Charon I know what Epistemology is. I even know better than to bring websters to a philosophical discussion. I suggest you spend the next couple of days reading https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology/ . Happy Hunting.

Are facts actual or theoretical? If they're theoretical are they real?

What is a fact? A fact is something actual, real. The sun, the moon, the earth are facts. Things that are happening, like those fires in California, are facts. They exist, they're real, they're not invented by someone.

So is a fact anything to do with theory? All theories are invented, aren't they?

There's your answer.
The moon is a thing not a fact but it's really the crux of the disagreements. For you facts are metaphysical for others facts are a kind of knowledge, epistemological. Carry on...
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby charon on November 20th, 2020, 11:22 am 

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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby bangstrom on November 20th, 2020, 1:45 pm 

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
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Re: Bias, or just fact?

Postby TheVat on November 20th, 2020, 2:23 pm 

At the risk of repeating myself (and what others have pointed out)....

In philosophy (which is where we are in this forum), a fact is a true statement about a certain state of affairs in the world. That is all it is. It is not an object.

(We are dealing with the second definition in Merriam-Webster, not the first one, because we are using the particular philosophic meaning of the word)

The moon is not a fact.

"The moon is a satellite body which orbits the Earth" is a fact.

"The moon is composed primarily of silicates." is another fact.

"The moon is a beautiful woman" is not a fact. It may be poetry. Or an hallucination. Or a metaphor for something.

"The moon is composed primarily of camembert," is not a fact. It is a false statement, and one that is easily falsified at our present level of science and technology.
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