Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on April 12th, 2021, 8:14 am 

As much as there is the 'myth' that Trump instigated the riot during his speech, there is the 'myth' that it was largely started by the crowd who left after Trump's speech. In fact, it seems that this is not the case. From the failing NYT once again:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... eline.html
12:15 p.m.–12:50 p.m.
Capitol Crowds Grow
Trump calls for march on Capitol.
A large crowd heads in that direction.

About 15 minutes into his speech, Mr. Trump tells rally attendees to walk to the Capitol. “You have to show strength,” he says.

At this moment, the Capitol grounds are protected by temporary perimeter fences, and there are few officers equipped to defend them.

12:17 p.m.

Supporters leave the rally in a steady stream before Mr. Trump’s speech ends, and they head toward the Capitol.

12:29 p.m.

As they arrive, another crowd of Trump supporters that has already gathered along the west perimeter fence becomes more agitated.

[...]


12:53 p.m.–1:03 p.m.
First Barriers Breached

About 20 minutes before Trump’s speech ends, some people in the Capitol crowd harass officers posted at the barricades and start to get physical.
Others follow suit, until they violently overwhelm the police and breach the building’s outer perimeter.

So it didn't revolve around Trump's speech, really - there were groups intent on causing chaos before Trump even spoke, and so before he even said "go peacefully".

Those words effectively didn't matter, because by then the barricades had been breached, not to mention pipe b's having already been put in place.

The arrow had seemingly already been 'fired' long before Trump's speech. Had he been informed of it from people 'in the know' prior to his speech? That is an additional fact that would be interesting to know.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on April 12th, 2021, 9:20 am 

What do you mean "before Trump even spoke"? He'd been inciting it for months, even years. He spoke and spoke and spoke and spoke. You can pretend that that attack on the Capitol was spur-of-the-moment, as if the single incident were a slice cut out of time, out of history, discrete and unconnected to any preceding events, but it won't convince anyone who isn't similarly prepared to ignore the reality of context.
I'm so sick of these acrobatic apologetics!
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby charon on April 12th, 2021, 10:02 am 

And why are you still talking about this?
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on April 12th, 2021, 10:38 am 

charon » April 12th, 2021, 9:02 am wrote:And why are you still talking about this?

I don't know why you are. For my part, I'm concerned with the detritus and fallout - some of which manifests in these belated attempts to exonerate the perpetrator-in-chief. I'm concerned about all the damage done to America and the world by the Trump administration, and that is yet to be done by the armed and resentful thugs he left leaderless. It's not over, not by a long chalk!
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby charon on April 12th, 2021, 2:20 pm 

I'm not concerned about the subject per se, I was really wondering why it's been brought up again after the whole thing's died down. I don't see any advantage in it.

Frankly, I'm just so glad that every day isn't bringing more inane news about that utterly destructive idiot and his cult following. It was stupid and intrusive. And nothing to do with America at all.

However, when life and the law eventually catch up with him, I'll be glued to it, believe me.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on April 12th, 2021, 3:13 pm 

charon » April 12th, 2021, 1:20 pm wrote:I'm not concerned about the subject per se,

Yet you keep driving by, rubbernecking.
I was really wondering why it's been brought up again after the whole thing's died down.

Because it may have "died down" in the news outlets, but the effects are continuing, and the investigations, postmortems and court trials will continue to resurface for some time yet.
And, apparently, because there are still those who will attempt to gloss over a sitting president's role in undermining the entire democratic process. And that will certainly retard - if not block - any efforts to repair that system.


Frankly, I'm just so glad that every day isn't bringing more inane news about that utterly destructive idiot and his cult following. It was stupid and intrusive. And nothing to do with America at all.

I don't know how your understanding of the situation can be improved. I'm just glad it's not my job to try.

However, when life and the law eventually catch up with him, I'll be glued to it, believe me.

That is the very least of my interest.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby charon on April 12th, 2021, 8:44 pm 

You don't understand. This whole era was an aberration, best consigned to history. To keep discussing it is to keep it alive. To talk about it with interest is to invite it, to keep it alive. It's not a good idea, it obscures present issues. And the present is more important than the past.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on April 12th, 2021, 9:35 pm 

charon » April 12th, 2021, 7:44 pm wrote:You don't understand. This whole era was an aberration, best consigned to history. To keep discussing it is to keep it alive. To talk about it with interest is to invite it, to keep it alive. It's not a good idea, it obscures present issues. And the present is more important than the past.

No, it wasn't. It was, and is, a quintessentially American development. Nudging it under a rug as if it didn't matter will only perpetuate and possibly intensify the unacknowledged societal problems that made it not merely possible but inevitable. If the problems are not addressed, it will certainly happen again - only, the next demagogue might be sane, smart and competent.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on April 12th, 2021, 9:40 pm 

New facts and twists on this topic do keep rolling in, though, and of course it does deserve dissection and investigation - the most powerful human alive on our planet appeared to consciously plan to abuse his office, and seemingly incited a homegrown militia to march on the capitol of their own country and the very rights we exercise on their forum - the pursuit of truth. What else could deserve more attention?
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby charon on April 13th, 2021, 12:41 am 

I repeat, you don't understand. But it's up to you. There's nothing new I can see, you're inventing it. Wait till something really happens.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on April 13th, 2021, 1:03 am 

The new thing was:

"“Clear the Capitol,” Pence said.

Basically showing how serious the VP felt the situation was, because it wasn't clear exactly how he'd been feeling and managing during that time.

It infers a lack of collusion on Pence's part, and so more of a unhinged despot trying to overturn the election.

It remains highly relevant because it seems he intends to try it all over again.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on April 13th, 2021, 3:50 am 

charon » April 12th, 2021, 11:41 pm wrote:I repeat, you don't understand.

And you, of course, do.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby charon on April 13th, 2021, 6:22 am 

I don't see why not.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby charon on April 13th, 2021, 6:37 am 

Mossling » April 13th, 2021, 6:03 am wrote:The new thing was:

"“Clear the Capitol,” Pence said.

Basically showing how serious the VP felt the situation was, because it wasn't clear exactly how he'd been feeling and managing during that time.

It infers a lack of collusion on Pence's part, and so more of a unhinged despot trying to overturn the election.

It remains highly relevant because it seems he intends to try it all over again.


Yes, more details have emerged, Mossling, but the thing itself is dead. We know he's unhinged, we know he's turned against Pence (and now McConnell), etc, etc. But we're raking over the past, right? It's yesterday's news.

That's all my point. Is there nothing new going on anywhere? Of course there is - Floyd trial, Gaetz, 'White Lives Matter', tons of stuff.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on April 13th, 2021, 7:04 am 

Unhinged and turned against Pence does not automatically mean he was truly seeking to overthrow the political norms of the USA.

I am still open on that point, but more evidence will no doubt flow in, and we can consider it more here when it does.

Please do ignore this thread if everything is conclusive in your view regarding it all.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on April 13th, 2021, 9:18 am 

charon » April 13th, 2021, 5:22 am wrote:I don't see why not.

You don't see why you shouldn't understand the situation in the US better than anyone else?
I suggest, because you choose the instant amnesia option - as do many Americans, regarding their own unfolding history. Yesterday's news - so boring!
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby TheVat on April 13th, 2021, 2:52 pm 

Trump hasn't gone away, is admired (maybe worshipped) by tens of millions of Americans, and many in Congress and state legislatures still invoke his name as their RW ideological brand. Trump is about self-enrichment and predatory capitalism - he wouldn't recognize a "political norm" if it bit him on the ass.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby TheVat on April 13th, 2021, 2:53 pm 

And I hope one does.
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