Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby TheVat on September 10th, 2020, 10:22 am 

(more on this whistle-blower story) (see previous page)

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/09/91118841 ... mps-claims

Fearless Leader must never be shown in an unflattering light.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby charon on September 10th, 2020, 10:57 am 

I was just reading about that. Not surprising, but then I suspect we're desensitised by now. It's become 'normal'.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on September 27th, 2020, 10:10 pm 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... bert-reich
if he loses the election, Trump will not accept the result because it would be the product of Anti-Trump Nation, and Trump isn’t the president of people who would vote against him. As he recently claimed, “The only way we’re going to lose this election is if the election is rigged.”

In the warped minds of Trump and his acolytes, this could lead to civil war. Just this week he refused to commit to a peaceful transition of power. His consigliere Roger Stone urges him to declare “martial law” if he loses. Michael Caputo, assistant secretary of public affairs at the Department of Health and Human Services, warns “the shooting will begin” when Trump refuses to go.

Civil war is unlikely, but the weeks and perhaps months after election day will surely be fraught. Even if Trump is ultimately forced to relinquish power, his core adherents will continue to view him as their leader. If he retains power, many if not most Americans will consider his presidency illegitimate.

So whatever happens, Trump’s megalomaniacal ego will prevail. America will have come apart over him, and Trump Nation will have seceded from Anti-Trump Nation.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... y-findings
“In the 1990s, Mr Trump nearly ruined himself by personally guaranteeing hundreds of millions of dollars in loans, and he has since said that he regretted doing so. But he has taken the same step again, his tax records show. He appears to be responsible for loans totaling $421m, most of which is coming due within four years.”

In a blunt summary of the problem, the Times speculated: “Should he win re-election, his lenders could be placed in the unprecedented position of weighing whether to foreclose on a sitting president.”
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on September 27th, 2020, 10:39 pm 

" Après moi, le déluge."
Used to express selfish disregard for problems that may occur in the future, especially after one's death or reign of control. This French phrase literally means, "After me, the flood." Attributed to both King Louis XV and his mistress Madame de Pompadour, the phrase likely refers to (and foreshadows) the difficulties that would befall France after years of the aristocracy's lavish living.

In this case, it's literal.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby TheVat on September 28th, 2020, 9:34 am 

More details in the New York Times story...

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/27/91756614 ... l-income-t
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby TheVat on September 30th, 2020, 7:32 pm 

https://www.dailykos.com/story/2020/9/3 ... in-NYTimes

Trump’s effort to undermine this country’s greatest democratic asset—its free election process—by urging his supporters to question the electoral results with the implicit condonement of violence if the results are not to his liking, may have been one small step of mere verbal spew for Trump, but it was a giant leap towards a Putin-flavored autocracy. As historian Michael Beschloss, interviewed for Sanger’s article, observes, “This is the kind of thing we have preached to other countries that they should not do. It reeks of autocracy, not democracy.”

If this were simply an accident of Trump’s personal interests aligning with Putin’s with regard to the 2020 election, then Trump’s effort last night to raise false doubts about “voter fraud,” preemptively declaring an election which he is increasingly likely to lose as illegitimate, and pledging to use all available means to overturn any result that does not lead to his own reinstatement-- while reprehensible and disqualifying-- would not rise to the level of outright treachery.

But that is not how our own intelligence agencies are viewing Trump’s performance. As Sanger reports, they see his behavior as deliberate, and his statements (possibly) as an intentional signal to Putin to amplify Russian disinformation efforts directed against American citizens. According to Sanger (who chooses his words carefully here), U.S. intelligence distinctly sees a coded conduit of communication between this president and Russian intelligence, specifically raising concerns in the intelligence community “that Mr. Trump’s rant about a fraudulent vote may have been intended for more than just a domestic audience.”
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby toucana on September 30th, 2020, 9:43 pm 

One peculiar aspect of the Trump 2020 re-election campaign is the recent wholesale cancellation of its paid-for TV campaign advertising in key swing states:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-14/trump-campaign-slashes-ad-spending-in-key-states-in-cash-crunch

The most recent cancellations were in Ohio and Iowa which are both states that Trump needs to win.

This makes so little sense when the incumbent is up to 8% behind the challenger in many polls, and with under 40 days left until election day, that many analysts are now casting around for explanations.

One observer on the Twitter thread of Medium Buying which specialises in analysing campaign advert placements noted that Iowa has a GOP legislature who will appoint his elector slate, he doesn’t need votes in Iowa he only needs to win the court case.

https://twitter.com/MediumBuying/status/1310590791832797184

Another possibility is that the Trump campaign is already flat broke. Back in early August, Politico reported that Trump had alienated Las Vegas casino mogul Sheldon Adelson, one of the GOP’s biggest megadonors. During a heated phone call Trump asked for a larger donation than the one offered, and successfully provoked Adelson into cutting off his funding altogether.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/08/trump-antagonizes-sheldon-adelson-phone-call-392688

Additional support for this emerged yesterday in a story carried on the Daily Mail website, that former campaign manager Brad Parscale who was recently arrested after barricading himself inside his house and threatening to commit suicide is now being accused by GOP sources of having misappropriated up to $40m of Trump campaign funds, and of having stolen another $10m from the RNC.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8791427/Ex-Trump-campaign-manager-Brad-Parscale-threatened-shoot-cops-say.html

A more sinister possibility however appears in another story published by Politico which says that the Trump campaign has been shifting funds into recruiting thousands of attorneys in order to contest the ballots in the immediate aftermath of election night.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/27/trump-legal-network-election-day-fight-422035

There must now be a very real fear that Trump has already abandoned attempts to win the 2020 presidential election in any honest fashion - he already knows he will lose. But has he also now abandoned any intention of conceding defeat either ?

Trump may well be counting on creating unprecedented levels of confusion and uncertainty about the result by making specious accusations of fraud and launching tendentious legal actions across the board. He might then plan to declare a state of ‘emergency’ and remain in power in defiance of the constitution.

Trump might actually believe that he could then rubber-stamp and consolidate this coup by appealing to and leveraging the SCOTUS with the help of his latest appointee.This would be in line with both the Vladimir Putin model of autocracy followed in Russia, and that of Viktor Orbán in Hungary as well.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on September 30th, 2020, 10:26 pm 

Trump may well be counting on creating unprecedented levels of confusion and uncertainty about the result by making specious accusations of fraud and launching tendentious legal actions across the board.

Hence the rush to get his tame Supreme Court... but they haven't been as tame lately as he's like.
He might then plan to declare a state of ‘emergency’ and remain in power in defiance of the constitution.

Of course. That's what all that grandstanding over the BLM protests was a dress rehearsal for.
He never had any intention of conceding a legitimate loss. He's been preparing for an illegitimate seizure of power for some time - possibly since his (dubious) election.
It is to that end - not from any personal feelings about anyone's ethnicity - that he's been cultivating the heavily armed and very aggressive white supremacist and right lunatic fringe. That is also why he won't say against them now: they redhat brigades are his personal army.

They're going to be at the polling stations, intimidating, and probably attacking Democtratic voters. Nothing new there. The attacks on the mail-in ballot was orchestrated well ahead of time.
But the martial law option is on stand-by - as are the thugs prepared to stage the requisite rioting, burning and looting.

There is no way this won't be horrible ---
except one
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby BadgerJelly on October 1st, 2020, 6:06 am 

Has anyone actually considered that he may WANT to lose. After all he can run again, right? Don’t forget that. Don’t assume he’s a moron either - he ‘appears’ to be, but that is probably the whole point.

Also, as the polls look pretty much the same as they were versus Hillary could it be argued that Biden winning would actually help solidify Trump’s next campaign (based off his agenda of screaming about voting scams)?

To put it bluntly I don’t see how Trump ‘losses’ unless someone better than Biden is ready to take over. Bernie was the best option imo ... they messed up though. That said Bernie still has a decent amount of influence so perhaps he’ll be listened to more closely and instigate some decent changes.

GL out there :)
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby toucana on October 1st, 2020, 9:23 am 

Has anyone actually considered that he may WANT to lose.

Why would Trump *want* to lose, when right now, being the incumbent president is the only thing preventing him from being indicted on dozens of federal and state level felony charges ?

Trump is currently being protected by a manifestly corrupt AG William Barr, and by a deeply suspect OLC (Office of Legal Counsel) memorandum issued some years ago by the DOJ which suggests that a sitting president is ‘immune’ from criminal indictment because it would conflict with Article II of the Constitution.

If Trump loses the 2020 presidential election then that OLC protection will vanish, and his life will then be over as of 20th January 2021. Both he and his entire family will be susceptible to multiple criminal charges - incuding his daughter Ivanka who is now on the hook for IRS tax fraud as well. Trump knows it and he is terrified - and desperate.

Trump and all his criminal associates like VP Mike Pence and AG William Barr may try to play ‘Pass The Pardon’ on the way out of the door, but it it simply won’t work. Apart from anything else, state level criminal charges can’t be pardoned by the executive branch of federal government. Trump will probably be bankrupt in short order as his creditors close in, and may well spend the rest of his life in jail.

After all he can run again, right?

Technically yes he can. But there are certain practical difficulties involved in mounting a presidential campaign as a convicted felon from inside a penitentiary cell.

Also, as the polls look pretty much the same as they were versus Hillary could it be argued that Biden winning would actually help solidify Trump’s next campaign

What polls are you looking at ? The well respected fivethirtyeight.com and numerous other pollsters put Biden with an 8% lead over Trump.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

Hillary Clinton only ever had a 3% lead at best in 2016.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby BadgerJelly on October 2nd, 2020, 1:58 am 

Give that the % doesn’t reflect the reality of the situation in terms of seats, and that the polls last time were at cetain points off by 140 seats, I wouldn’t bother reading too much into it.

Also, I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that the legal system provides justice (especially when people are able to pay their way out of trouble).

I’m sure Trump was ready to lose in the first election and had a longterm plan. It looks like he’s just repeating his initial strategy of questioning the validity of the vote - as he was prior to election against Clinton. Pile this on top of anyone coming in to replace Trump having to do a decent job in a poor situation, they’re effectively putting a target on their back for Trump to take shots at (lies or not doesn’t matter; sadly).

The failure is in the democratic party. The failure is in a system where only two choices are possible. The failure is in comedic campaigning that looks like pure satire to anyone in europe (that has been the case for decades).

The issue as I see it, is that too many Americans delude themselves into thinking their president isn’t a reflection of the their country ... sorry, that doesn’t follow. Politically apathy serves the despots of the world and sadly the most vulnerable will inevitably suffer more than those that could’ve stood for their personal principles rather than kowtow.

I think this will go two ways for the US. Either this will be a wake up call (no signs of that tbh) and lead to a rethink of US society and cultural thought, or this will fizzle out and apathy will return once he’s gone - the longer term result being the US will split up (probably within my lifetime - which would certainly initiate a complete rethink, but would obviously be an extremely precarious position for the world at large).

Note: There is no reason why an amiable split in the US isn’t possible. I may even be encouraged by what happens with the EU - I’m certainly not predicting a civil war in the US. I doubt there are enough insane capable people of pushing for such a thing with any kind of success. It would be difficult to introduce a different system AND keep the army neutral ... that, in my narrow understanding, would be highly problematic for global security not to mention the US.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on October 2nd, 2020, 11:21 pm 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/liv ... 8bfc756663
Secret Service agents reportedly furious at Trump's behavior during pandemic

Secret Service agents almost never complain about the president. It’s “unheard of,” the Washington Post reports. But now, current agents’ frustration at Trump’s behavior during the coronavirus pandemic is seeping out into public view.

“Some currently in the ranks had become convinced during the pandemic that Trump was willing to put his protectors in harm’s way,” the Post reports, noting that some agents feel like he has put the people sworn to protect him in harm’s way.

“He’s never cared about us,” one agent told a friend, the Post reports. Another said in an internal message group: “This administration doesn’t care about the Secret Service.”



https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/t ... cna1239433
Jeffrey Goldberg’s recent article in The Atlantic ... accuses Trump of rejecting a visit to Aisne-Marne American Cemetery and Memorial in France because he feared the rain would mess up his hair. “Why should I go to that cemetery? It’s filled with losers,” Trump reportedly asked. In a separate discussion, the president reportedly referred to Marines killed in World War I during the consequential Battle of Belleau Wood as “suckers.” Trump slammed the accusations as false, but this story and others have now been largely confirmed by several media outlets including Fox News.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on November 27th, 2020, 10:28 pm 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... f-election
“I’m very worried about that,” Trump said when asked about his previous baseless claims of fraud in Georgia. “You have a fraudulent system.” He then called Georgia’s Republican secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger, who has defended the state’s election process, an “enemy of the people”.

Such attacks have Republicans worried as they seek to motivate Georgia voters to come to the polls in January, volunteer for their Senate campaigns and – perhaps most importantly of all – dig deep into their pockets to pay for the unexpected runoff races.

In particular Trump’s comments have spurred conspiracy theories that the state’s electoral system is rigged and prompted some of his supporters to make calls for a boycott of the coming vote – something that local Georgia Republicans desperately do not want. “His demonization of Georgia’s entire electoral system is hurting his party’s chances at keeping the Senate,” warned an article published by Politico.

Even Trump’s son, Donald Trump Jr, has jumped into the fray, tweeting: “I’m seeing a lot of talk from people that are supposed to be on our side telling GOP voters not to go out & vote.. That is NONSENSE. IGNORE those people.”

The president has also pledged to visit Georgia to hold rallies in support of the two Republican candidates, Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue. The first of those events is expected to be on Saturday 5 December and could be a double-edged sword. Trump is still a powerful force with a loyal following whose endorsement is a key mobilizing tool for the race. On the other hand, in freewheeling his rallies, Trump may spout conspiracy theories that undermine their campaigns.

Certainly Trump’s mood has become increasingly erratic even as he has made the clearest signs yet that he will eventually leave the White House, which he convincingly lost to Biden in both the popular vote and the vital electoral college that actually picks the next president.

On Thanksgiving Day, Trump grumpily said he would leave the White House when the electoral college voted for Biden. He has so far defied tradition by refusing to concede defeat and launching legal attempts to challenge the outcomes in battleground states includijng Georgia, Pennsylvania and Michigan. So far, those efforts have largely failed.


Talk about testing the system, eh. I wonder if he'll come out of all of this with deep respect for his national constitution and American civil politics. Perhaps this was the 'disciplining' he'd been too cowardly to impose on himself since he was a kid. Like a child who sh*ts in his own bed just to 'teach everyone a lesson' .... But it just doesn't work that way...
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby charon on December 2nd, 2020, 8:03 pm 

I love the way they're talking about Trump pardoning his children.

WHAT FOR???????
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on December 3rd, 2020, 1:29 am 

charon » December 2nd, 2020, 7:03 pm wrote:I love the way they're talking about Trump pardoning his children.

WHAT FOR???????


EVERYTHING!
Isn't that every child's dream - unconditional forgiveness from Papa?
Especially if they've committed most of their crimes to prop up Papa's pretense at emperorship....
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby charon on December 3rd, 2020, 5:20 am 

You don't know what they could be pardoned for then. Me neither. Tax problems maybe. The point is that pardons are usually given - I stress usually - in mild or forgiveable cases. Not as a matter of whim and not to protect your own interests.

I find it fascinating that there's no better than admission of wrongdoing than a pardon. To his own family.

I just want this guy gone, end of. And I'm not even American. This charade stopped being about America a long time ago. It became a personalised road show and that's not becoming of a leading nation. Hopefully Biden & Co will restore some dignity and put America back on the map where it belongs.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on December 3rd, 2020, 12:32 pm 

...The point is that pardons are usually given - I stress usually - in mild or forgiveable cases. Not as a matter of whim and not to protect your own interests.

I find it fascinating that there's no better than admission of wrongdoing than a pardon. To his own family.

That doesn't matter. He has to pardon them before they come to trial, because of the evidence they have against them that could be used to bargain with. Tax fraud and party fund misappropriation are the very least of what they could be indicted for.

Isn't he selling executive indulgences now?
I mean, as well as Alaska and the Grand Canyon?
Make hay while the reaper's grim!
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby charon on December 3rd, 2020, 3:20 pm 

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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on January 7th, 2021, 9:55 am 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... itol-named
reported 52 arrests: five for firearms offences and 47 for curfew violations and unlawful entry. Twenty-six of those arrested were on the grounds of the US Capitol.

A cooler packed with molotov cocktails was also found on US Capitol grounds. Police recovered two pipe bombs at the Democratic National Committee and Republican National Committee offices.

That seems like 'proper' terrorism to me... not just 'protest'.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on January 7th, 2021, 11:18 am 

You know Giuliani will stand up on a podium and say into a microphone : "The Democrats planted those explosives to incriminate our beloved patriots!"
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby hyksos on January 7th, 2021, 5:56 pm 

I thought we had a thread about the storming of the senate by the MAGA hats. Where did it go?
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on January 7th, 2021, 6:11 pm 

hyksos » January 7th, 2021, 4:56 pm wrote:I thought we had a thread about the storming of the senate by the MAGA hats. Where did it go?

Not far http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=36100
There's overlap.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on April 10th, 2021, 11:38 pm 

I started this thread on Feb 21st 2017.

Now, more than 4 years later, it's interesting to find the following report:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... e-pentagon
Two hours after the Capitol was breached, as supporters of Donald Trump pummelled police and vandalised the building, Vice-President Mike Pence tried to assert control. In an urgent phone call to the acting defense secretary, he issued a startling demand.

“Clear the Capitol,” Pence said.


The Senate majority leader, Chuck Schumer, and House speaker, Nancy Pelosi, were making a similarly desperate appeal, asking the army to deploy the national guard.

“We need help,” Schumer said, more than an hour after the Senate chamber had been breached.

At the Pentagon, officials were discussing reports that state capitals were facing violence in what had the makings of a national insurrection.

“We must establish order,” said Gen Mark Milley, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, in a call with Pentagon leaders
. But order would not be restored for hours.

The Pentagon document was obtained by the Associated Press. It adds another layer of understanding about the fear and panic while the insurrection played out, lays bare the inaction by Trump, and shows how his refusal to call off his supporters contributed to a slowed response by the military and law enforcement.

It shows that intelligence missteps, tactical errors and bureaucratic delays were eclipsed by the government’s failure to comprehend the scale and intensity of a violent uprising by its own citizens.

With Trump not engaged, it fell to Pentagon officials, a handful of senior White House aides, the leaders of Congress and Pence, holed up in a secure bunker, to attempt to manage the chaos.


Along with hours of sworn testimony, the Pentagon document provides a still incomplete picture about how the insurrection advanced with such swift and lethal force, interrupting the congressional certification of Joe Biden as president and delaying the peaceful transfer of power.

Five people, including a police officer, died as a direct result of the riot. More than 400 people have been charged. Lawmakers, still protected by national guard troops, will hear from the inspector general of the Capitol police this week.

“Any minute that we lost, I need to know why,” Senator Amy Klobuchar, chair of the Senate rules committee, which is investigating the siege, said last month

It all played out beyond any of my expectations. I was thinking the 'takeover' was going to be with foreign help online again, and then, validated by another election win, he would plot his trajectory from there...
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby charon on April 11th, 2021, 7:21 am 

I'm certainly no fan of you-know-who but, in all fairness, I've yet to see written proof that he actually delayed or impeded action that day at the Capitol. He eventually asked the protesters to go home at about 4.15 pm. A little too late.

Some articles say he 'broke his silence' when he made that statement. Does that mean he'd been approached beforehand during the riot and simply remained silent? Not a word?

Did anyone speak one-to-one with him? Were they ignored? What actually happened? Where was he? What was he doing? There are gaps in these reports and, without knowing more, I'm loathe to say much.

What is missing, of course, and this in itself is fairly damning, is that he obviously didn't spring into action, take charge, and do something concrete as leader and president. Not that we can see, anyway. But, if he had, we would see it.

I want more info.

(In any case it's all over, he's been impeached and acquitted. Unless there are civil suits or other legal proceedings out against him on this matter and not just the interminable gossip).
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on April 11th, 2021, 8:29 am 

It's true, we don't know what he was doing or what he was up to as it all kicked off.

Maybe the silence on the matter speaks for itself in that way.

It seems he must have received information at some point, and I can't imagine that he was not keeping abreast of the situation at the Capitol, even - where he had directed his crowd, albeit asking them to go peacefully - to where his grip on power was dying its final breaths.

Then again, the whole thing had been tipped as somehow planned to be "wild", and it seems Mr T at least wanted them to peacefully protest Pence acknowledging the election result.

Maybe there were quite a few people anticipating it being "wild" there, and were just not in the mood for being peaceful? Especially if they unflinchingly believed the election had been "stolen".

Could that crowd, who had become stoked for something "wild" over days, if not weeks, instantly pacify their hearts as requested by their leader just before marching to the Capitol?
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby charon on April 11th, 2021, 8:31 am 

As I say, there's nothing much to say without all the facts.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Mossling on April 11th, 2021, 8:38 am 

Well, there's this, at least, from the failing NYT:

After the Speech: What Trump Did as the Capitol Was Attacked
Evidence emerged during the trial about what Mr. Trump was doing during those hours, including new details about two phone calls with lawmakers that prosecutors said clearly alerted the president to the mayhem on Capitol Hill. Prosecutors said the new information was clear proof of Mr. Trump’s intent to incite the mob and of his dereliction to stop the violence, even when he knew that the life of Vice President Mike Pence was in danger.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby charon on April 11th, 2021, 10:36 am 

Thank you, that's very good, but it's all history as far as I'm concerned. Trump's finished - and, if he's not, he should be.
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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby Serpent on April 11th, 2021, 1:07 pm 

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Re: Trump: An Emerging Dictatorship?

Postby charon on April 12th, 2021, 2:11 am 

Minds like his are never placated, that's the whole point.
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